- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Quote:
“Families across the Church are searching for ways to strengthen and protect their children against the evils around them. In some cases those parents are desperately trying to bring back some in their family who have wandered. I am confident that there will be, increasingly, a reward given by God for their efforts. Those who never give up will find that God never gave up and that He will help them.” –Henry B. Eyring, April 2008 General Conference
Elder Eyring visited my home stake as an apostle in 2004. I remember taking notes and listening as he spoke directly to our region. As Elder Eyring stood to speak this past April, I remembered his visit to my own stake, and I recalled how my Seminary adored Elder Eyring and his solemn, heartfelt speeches. The April General Conference was the first one that I watched after formally beginning to examine my faith. The above quote by President Eyring cut me. As he spoke those words, my minds rushed across two time zones to my parents, listening to the same words I was. How could he say that? How could this man be standing up and encouraging my parents to never accept my decision, should I choose to leave the church?Quote:“Over the years many times women have come to me in tears. They would love to train their children in the Church, in the gospel of Jesus Christ! But they were unable to do so. They would like to accept positions of responsibility in the Church! They would like to pay their tithing! They would love to go to the temple and do the work for the dead, to do work for themselves, to be sealed for eternity, and to have their own flesh and blood, their children, sealed to them for eternity!
But the doors are locked! They themselves have locked them, and the doors have often rusted on their hinges. Someone did not teach these individuals sufficiently, or they did not study the scriptures and they did not understand, or they ignored the warnings which came to them. They married out of the Church.” –Spencer W. Kimball, Ensign Oct 1979
The contempt that is shown here for interfaith marriages…I don’t even know where to begin. I realize this is an old quote. However, as one in a relationship with a post-mo atheist, I promise you that it is very real. My former YW leaders reassure me that I will be treated better by a priesthood holder. A woman in my ward, who is a convert and married to a non-member husband, told me of her own daughter’s previous engagement to a non-member. This woman was proud for having brought her daughter to tears and convincing her to break off the engagement. Her daughter shortly thereafter met and married an LDS man. My parents wonder what they did wrong that I would choose to date an atheist.Quote:“I have heard it said that the death of a loved one is the most difficult challenge one has to face, but I believe the spiritual death of a loved one can be even more difficult to accept. In Faith Precedes the Miracle, President Spencer W. Kimball states that ‘there is no tragedy in death, but only in sin.’ While those who unexpectedly lose loved ones in death may understandably feel it is a tragedy, President Kimball’s statement is true in the ultimate sense. Children who die young are lost to us in this life but not in eternity. Children who stray and never come back may be lost eternally. That thought weighed heavily upon us as we continued our struggle with our son’s choices.” –Anonymous, Ensign Feb 2008
This is not just my parents. This is a common reaction to those who leave the church.I don’t want to be bitter. I don’t want to be angry. However, these quotes typify attitudes that exist in the church, that I would state are even social norms, that can make me very very angry when I allow myself to mull over them. How
darethe leaders of this church teach my parents to never accept my potential decision? How darethey demand that wound be left open for the entirety of our lives? The doctrine of eternal families is what attracts many to the church. And yet, I feel this same doctrine brings harm to mixed-member or interfaith families. As I seek to better understand my relationship with the divine, I am faced with the reality that any decision short of remaining Mormon will cause my parents great pain and that they will be encouraged for the rest of my life to never give up on me, to always hope and attempt to bring me and my family back into the fold. I regret this. Why should a decision that seems good and right to me cause so much pain to my loved ones? Why does the church encourage this pain? You have raised a lot of complex issues, so I will provide my point of view. The thing that you must realize is that your decision may cause them pain. There is no easy way around it. You are potentially rejecting everything they hold sacred and even rejecting the bonds that they believe hold their family together. This doesn’t mean your decision is wrong, or even not necessary for you, but you can’t expect that making such a choice won’t have any fallout or hurt feelings. Our decisions have consequences and you can’t blame the church for the disagreements between you and your parents. The church may have taught it, but the fact is your parents have accepted certain things as doctrine, whether or not it really is, and they believe that they must live by it. What you are running into, is not the teachings of the church per se, but the teachings that your parents have accepted and try to live. I really hope for you and your parents that you can work this out, and they will show you respect and show your significant other respect. As far as what the church teaches, these quotes represent some of what the church teaches. However, they don’t represent all of the doctrine. The church does not teach that you should shun people that fall away or even treat them with disrespect. Yes, I know that there are people that believe and teach this, and that there are quotes out there that would say otherwise, but the church teaches that we should love our neighbor. If you do decide to leave the church, your parents will always want to find a way to bring you back, because it is what they think they should do. It is now up to you to work on that relationship and come to an understanding. Be open about your beliefs and always realize that your parents actions are most likely motivated out of love and not hate. If you both realize that you still love each other, then it can be worked out and you can have a good relationship regardless of their beliefs. Just take it really slow and remember to show their beliefs respect if you want them to respect yours.
As far as interfaith marriages, the church teaches what is really a commonly held belief. Marriages fair better when people’s religious beliefs are compatible. The trick is to make sure you know what you believe first, and then find someone that has compatible beliefs. Before you make a decision on whom to marry, know what you believe. Many people go into interfaith marriages and neither of them have much of a belief in anything so they figure their fine. Sometimes as time goes by and usually after they have had a child or two, one or both of the spouses will have a resurgence of belief and want to start raising their children in their church. This is where the problems lie. This is not a church teaching, but what many marriage counselors will tell you outside of the church. So tread those waters carefully.
I am sorry for the long post and hope I haven’t been too harsh. I think it was a great question to ask, and am glad that you asked so candidly and directly. I hope you find some peace and direction in you decisions regarding this matter.
trill, my only comment for now is that the Church simply MUST preach the ideal as the model for the overall membership. There is no way around that. It simply is a given. From that base, it allows for individual exceptions – especially with caveats like (the very real and valid), “By following the promptings of the Holy Ghost for your own unique situation.” My experience with my wife is instructive from the other side of the coin. We met when we were teenagers – 16 & 15. It literally was love at first sight for me. I had no doubt within one week that we would be married eventually – and that was very, very odd for me, given my perspective on such things at the time. Once she turned 16, I never dated anyone else. When I left on my mission, she was just starting her senior year in high school – and she was wearing an official engagement ring, with the wedding band in a box in her room.
Our path was almost as opposed to the Church’s teachings as marrying a non-member. Almost nobody understood or believed it was the right thing for us, but it was. I understood a lot better as our kids got to be that age why everyone thought as they did, but it was the way it had to be for us. It was “right” for us, even though it technically was against the standards of the Church. I knew what the Church said about that type of dating, and everything else about our dating was right down the line with the standards, but we still did what we did because of how we felt about the overall situation – that it was inspired and right.
My son talked with me a couple of nights ago about his situation. He should receive his mission call soon, and his girlfriend is very supportive – even though she is not a member. She is a wonderful person, and I truly hope she keeps learning about the Church and is baptized, so they can be married in the temple. He wants that, but he also wants to be married to her, regardless. My kids know our convictions about temple marriage, but they also know that we respect their rights and abilities as adults to make their own individual decisions. We talked about that, and my advice was simple:
“Pray about it and follow your feelings. If you feel certain that you want to marry her, and if she waits for you to serve your mission but doesn’t join the Church, marry her when you get back. Realize the potential difficulties right up front, and work to overcome them by truly becoming one. (They are real and large in interfaith marriages that include significant theological differences.) Treat her like I treat your mother, then let life and God work it out in the end. Just go into it with your eyes wide open, not assuming she will convert once you are married.”
Again, the Church really has no choice. It simply MUST teach the communal ideal as the official stance, then allow for individual exceptions for individual members – just as I do with my own kids. Frankly, I think that’s what you will do with your kids, also (teach them whatever you believe is the ideal, but allow for them to reach individual decisions that might conflict with that ideal) – so I would try to see it that way and cut them some slack.
I didn’t read into Elder Eyring’s talk that people should never accept and respect the decision of others to leave the Church or not practice actively. He just said “never give up.” I think he was refering to hope and not acceptance. I’m interpreting that based on what I know of Elder Eyring (I am no expert, but he seems more open and accepting). Spencer Kimball was a real binary, right vs wrong, one way or the highway kind of personality. So his comments often have a tone of doom and gloom when speaking of people that don’t live up to perfection in every way (see Miracle of Forgiveness). If you grew up in the Church, and you are in your 30’s and 40’s, there’s a good chance our parents were heavily influenced by this era of Mormonism. Mine were. They are nice and loving parents, but that is a heavy focus for them. They are always telling us adult children to make sure to check all the little boxes so that Satan doesn’t get us (paraphrasing). If we do that, everything will always turn out good (we will be protected and nothing bad or uncomfortable will ever happen to us).
“Anonymous” from the Ensign projects a commonly held “Spencer W. Kimball” kind of view. I don’t know how else to describe it other than being plainly not in harmony with the Gospel as I see it in our scriptures. Even under the most conservative view, people who lose faith are not “lost” in the enternities. We do not teach that. We teach that people receive as much glory and divine enlightenment as they want to have. Even the worst people out there go to a really wonderful existence in the afterlife according to Mormon theology. Nobody is lost … ok, except the so-called “sons of perdition.” But come on, that isn’t a real concern for anyone but a handful of people that have ever lived (if it is true).
Just a quick note to thank everyone for their input. Things got pretty busy around here, but I do plan to return to this thread and reply. Thank you again. -Trill
I’ve tried, a couple of times now, to compose a response to follow up on my original posting. I am having some trouble gathering up my thoughts and phrasing them such so they’ll strike where I want them to. So, while I continue trying to eke out a follow up that more precisely explains my concerns, I’ll go ahead and share a few clarifications. Some are based on the earlier post, while others are more directly responses. Thanks again to everyone who has commented. I appreciate your input. 1-My SO, Silas, balked at being introduced as an atheist. In the interest of accuracy, he is more of a semi-agnostic maltheist with aspirations of apatheism. For convenience, I’ll call him “irreligious” from here on out, which carries less baggage than “atheist.”
2- Valoel brings up the question of my parents’ background and how that may be influencing things. I am in my early 20’s; however, my parents married in their late 30’s/early 40’s. Both of my parents are, independently, converts to the church. While they converted under wildly different circumstances, both look to their conversion as the marking point and reason for a dramatic change in their life. As their daughter, by looking outside the church for peace I am not only, as musicman observed, “potentially rejecting everything they hold sacred and even rejecting the bonds that they believe hold their family together,” but also I am accepting the very life that they rejected, a life that caused them much pain.
3- When I entitled this thread “Interfaith Families…,” I think that perhaps I cast the net too widely. There are many concerns in regards to interfaith
marriagesHowever, what I would like to focus on here is the relationships that exist within interfaith families. I feel trapped by the pain that I am causing my parents and the stress this has put on our relationship. How does one nourish a healthy relationship with loved ones who sincerely believe that your choices are very bad ones? “We love him, because he first loved us.” You might wish they could accept your concerns fully, but, at the most personal level, you need to accept and love them for who they are – even if that is parents who can’t accept your concerns fully right now. It’s natural to want them, your parents, to be the mature, humble ones, but it’s important for you to be mature and humble.
I would make sure they know that you appreciate deeply their beliefs and how those beliefs helped make you who you are – that you recognize how central those beliefs are to what wonderful people they are – that you love them for their difficult decisions to join the Church – etc. I also would tell them that you aren’t rejecting their beliefs, but rather that you simply need to figure it out on your own – that you respect them too much to not try to understand God and your relationship for yourself. Ask them to keep praying for you – that you appreciate their faith and you hope they never give up hope that you can be together forever.
It might not hurt to grin and say that the OT verse says “when they are OLD they will not depart from it” – but it doesn’t say anything about when they are young.
Sincere thanks and appreciation is a wonderful salve, as is a humble plea for understanding and the explicit statement that you really need to figure this out for yourself.
Good questions. Inter-familial relationships are so complicated. We feel like we owe something to our parents because of all they have done for us. We also feel guilt when our actions cause them pain. I think first, you let them know that you love them, and you continue to build on that relationship. You need to set a boundary. If talking about religion is a difficult subject between you and your family, then perhaps you should find other things to talk about. If the subject comes up, you can try a couple of different things. 1. change the subject. 2. if asked a direct question that you know will lead to a discussion you don’t want to have, then politely decline to answer it and move on. They will soon learn that the discussion about your religious choices is not open. You can then have the time to work on the common interests that you do share. You can’t change their mind anymore than they can change yours, so these tips can help you focus on things that will bring you together instead of tear you apart. Hopefully, they will choose to respect these boundaries.
On the part about accepting the life that they rejected. It is your decision, if you feel it is the correct path for you, then you should feel no guilt about it. We should only feel guilt if we have done something wrong. Yes your parents don’t like the choice, and they feel bad about it. This is caused because you have a difference of opinion, not because you have wronged them. You need not feel guilt about it. If they are the caring people that you have expressed they are, then they care more about having a relationship with you than your religious choices. As I said above, focus on the things you have in common and you can still have a great relationship.
I have family members who are both in the church and out of it, some who are strong TBM types, some who are heterodox types, some inactive, and some who have alternate beliefs (e.g. eastern mysticism, pentacostal, atheist, etc.). We have to care more about the individual than the institution. Part of that is honoring where people are coming from. And if you are the one with more awareness (regardless of whether you are the one in or out of the institution), you have the most responsibility in the relationship. Maturity, insight and perspective gives you responsbility to lead by example, to bridge the divide, to “strengthen the feeble knees.” You can’t do those things by being judgmental or by only loving conditionally or by focusing on who is right and who is wrong. Again, people on both sides of the divide do this. The problem is that those on the institution’s side are often like those guys in the Verizon commercial who feel like they have a network of 500 people standing behind them, in their corner, telling them they are right. When everyone is telling you that you are right, beware. Agreement often drowns out what we really need to hear.
I was re-reading over these comments tonight, and wanted to say thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts. I tried setting a boundary of sorts, and asked my parents to please not ask whether I had attended church or not for one month. When I call home tomorrow will be the end of that month. I am a little nervous about that phone call tomorrow,and am hoping that I can successfully both show love/appreciation and maintain the boundaries that I need right now. I’m sure I’ll read over the suggestions here again. Thank you.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.