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I love this question and I have taken a few days to think about it. Even though I have not articulated this to myself until relatively recently, I feel like I am done (ordinance-wise). This is one reason I found the temple (for me) to be reasonably worthless as a repeat experience. As for the ordinances for other people, should they not have the opportunity to choose for themselves in the next life? By doing their ordinances for them, am I not, in a way, removing their opportunity to experience these ordinances themselves? As far as the rest of the church progression and for the rest of my life, my new paradigm is to be where I find meaning. For now (and hopefully for some time) that meaning is with a terrestrial level of adherence to CoJCoLDS theology.
Rumin8 wrote:
As for the ordinances for other people, should they not have the opportunity to choose for themselves in the next life? By doing their ordinances for them, am I not, in a way, removing their opportunity to experience these ordinances themselves?
On the one hand, the Church teaches those in the next life have the choice to accept or reject the ordinances done by proxy in the next life. But only a fool and far few would reject them, since it’s so obvious the LDS Church true on the other side.
But… if someone were to by proxy perform a religious ordinance like that for me, I’d be pretty ticked. Even if I didn’t accept it, I’d find it insulting. And judging by the number of offenses the Church has committed by baptizing holocaust victims (just to give one example), I’d say most everyone else agrees.
The disconnect that causes the anger for most people with regard to vicarious ordinace performace is the undertsandable confusion about the difference between it (truly voluntary acceptance or rejection) and typical Christian baptisms that are considered binding simply because they have been performed. We say baptism is a salvific ordinance, but we don’t really believe that – since we believe plenty of people can be baptized and not be exalted and everyone will be saved in the end (minus a few sons of perdition). In Mormon theology, it isn’t baptism that saves; it is a changed heart and subsequent progress symbolized by being baptized. This isn’t the post to discuss that threadjack, but feel free, anyone, to start another thread about it.
Roy wrote:This really speaks to me. Most here know my faith crisis story that was precipitated by the stillbirth of our daughter. I was in grief and spiritual agony wondering if I had perhaps failed to secure the blessings to ensure a live birth. At one point I received a strong feeling or prompting that I was loved and accepted just as my stillborn daughter was loved and accepted. This was paradigm changing for me. Maybe, just maybe, my relationship with my Heavenly Parents was never in question. Maybe my failures and achievements are irrelevant in the face of such overwhelming love. I had been checking boxes trying earn God’s love. What if all I had to do was turn to him and receive it as a free gift all along? (Aside #1: The other side of this is that maybe I have/had less control over the “blessings” and “trials” in my life than I had previously supposed.) (Aside #2: If little children are “alive in Christ” and exalted without having to do anything, why do we who think ourselves adults keep inventing hoops that we feel we need to jump through? Are we not all as little children of limited understanding compared to god?)
I gotta say, I love your asides there. We are told to “be as little children” too which dovetails nicely with Aside #2.
Old Timer wrote:
The disconnect that causes the anger for most people with regard to vicarious ordinace performace is the undertsandable confusion about the difference between it (truly voluntary acceptance or rejection) and typical Christian baptisms that are considered binding simply because they have been performed. We say baptism is a salvific ordinance, but we don’t really believe that – since we believe plenty of people can be baptized and not be exalted and everyone will be saved in the end (minus a few sons of perdition). In Mormon theology, it isn’t baptism that saves; it is a changed heart and subsequent progress symbolized by being baptized.This isn’t the post to discuss that threadjack, but feel free, anyone, to start another thread about it.
My issue is why the hell are we sealing people who got divorced just because they had kids together? I have had a visitation from the spirit of a family member who explicitly told me she didn’t want to be sealed to her husband. I had to remind my family YET AGAIN, that the answer is no, don’t do it, but we get all gung ho and just do all the sealings as if it doesn’t matter when it clearly does. We’re really good at brushing off people’s feelings. Abusive parents? Oh it doesn’t matter we will all be perfect when we’re all exalted. Abusive spouse? Oh it doesn’t matter endure to the end to keep the family together, we will all be perfect when we’re all exalted. Spirit visitation that says NO? Oh, what if she changes her mind, what if you’re being deceived, it will all work out in the Millenium anyway and we will all be perfect when we’re exalted. UGH. We sure know how to take a beautiful doctrine and turn it into poison.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
My issue is why the hell are we sealing people who got divorced just because they had kids together? I have had a visitation from the spirit of a family member who explicitly told me she didn’t want to be sealed to her husband. I had to remind my family YET AGAIN, that the answer is no, don’t do it, but we get all gung ho and just do all the sealings as if it doesn’t matter when it clearly does. We’re really good at brushing off people’s feelings. Abusive parents? Oh it doesn’t matter we will all be perfect when we’re all exalted. Abusive spouse? Oh it doesn’t matter endure to the end to keep the family together, we will all be perfect when we’re all exalted. Spirit visitation that says NO? Oh, what if she changes her mind, what if you’re being deceived, it will all work out in the Millenium anyway and we will all be perfect when we’re exalted. UGH. We sure know how to take a beautiful doctrine and turn it into poison.
We may delay an ordinance but someone will eventually come along and steamroll all those ordinances through.
Family may know the true intentions and wishes of the deceased but what happens in two generations time when people in the know are themselves deceased? What happens in the year 2020 when someone in Billings, Montana (my random city is always Billings) that has never met a member of your family gets overly enthusiastic about all this genealogy and temple work that we’re supposed to be doing and takes it upon themselves to finish all the ordinances in your family?
The later happened to me. DW entered lots and lots of info into FamilySearch, the day came when we wanted to take names to the temple. When we went to select a few names we found that someone a continent away sniped
allour family ordinances. We took “the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers,” turned it into a checklist, and now there’s more emphasis placed on getting the ordinances done than on making any meaningful connection. Sure, some Joe Blow in Billings churned out the mandatory ordinances, everyone can sleep well tonight, but in the process it robbed our kids of an opportunity to do ordinances for people they’re directly connected to. We’ll do the ordinances for Joe Blow’s family.
The hearts of eager beaver strangers shall turn to the checklists.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
I have had a visitation from the spirit of a family member who explicitly told me she didn’t want to be sealed to her husband. I had to remind my family YET AGAIN, that the answer is no, don’t do it, but we get all gung ho and just do all the sealings as if it doesn’t matter when it clearly does.
In the Church, there are two types of revelations: Those that support the Church’s mission and dogma, and those that are of the devil.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:My issue is why the hell are we sealing people who got divorced just because they had kids together? I have had a visitation from the spirit of a family member who explicitly told me she didn’t want to be sealed to her husband. I had to remind my family YET AGAIN, that the answer is no, don’t do it, but we get all gung ho and just do all the sealings as if it doesn’t matter when it clearly does. We’re really good at brushing off people’s feelings. Abusive parents? Oh it doesn’t matter we will all be perfect when we’re all exalted. Abusive spouse? Oh it doesn’t matter endure to the end to keep the family together, we will all be perfect when we’re all exalted. Spirit visitation that says NO? Oh, what if she changes her mind, what if you’re being deceived, it will all work out in the Millenium anyway and we will all be perfect when we’re exalted. UGH. We sure know how to take a beautiful doctrine and turn it into poison.
I’m not a huge believer in the ordinance by proxy stuff to begin with (I’m agnostic about it at best). I’m not even a believer that baptism is required to get into heaven. It is really my thought and hope that our loving Heavenly Parents will sort that stuff out. I agree, we do seem to make the simple beauty of the gospel look much more complicated than I think it actually is.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
it will all work out in the Millenium anyway and we will all be perfect when we’re exalted. UGH. We sure know how to take a beautiful doctrine and turn it into poison.
The other challenge of having a stillborn child is that they are not recorded as a live birth and therefore not eligible for church records (those records that I had been taught to consider the literal manifestation of the “Book of Life”) or ordinances. There is no authoritative answer to whether or not they count as a member of our family (that DW and I will get to raise in the millennium) or whether their spirits get recycled into another body to have the experience of a mortal probation. We are made to understand that it will all work out in the end … somehow.The secret is to trust in the love and mercy of Heavenly Parents. That was quiet an adjustment for me that did not come naturally. I had grown accustomed to trusting in what I felt was contractually enforcable protections and justifications of covenants and ordinances.
Roy wrote:
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
it will all work out in the Millenium anyway and we will all be perfect when we’re exalted. UGH. We sure know how to take a beautiful doctrine and turn it into poison.
The other challenge of having a stillborn child is that they are not recorded as a live birth and therefore not eligible for church records (those records that I had been taught to consider the literal manifestation of the “Book of Life”) or ordinances. There is no authoritative answer to whether or not they count as a member of our family (that DW and I will get to raise in the millennium) or whether their spirits get recycled into another body to have the experience of a mortal probation. We are made to understand that it will all work out in the end … somehow.The secret is to trust in the love and mercy of Heavenly Parents. That was quiet an adjustment for me that did not come naturally. I had grown accustomed to trusting in what I felt was contractually enforcable protections and justifications of covenants and ordinances.
HUGS
What’s most troubling to me is that lots of people have this question. They know this. But they don’t take it to the Lord. If someone had asked Joseph Smith this question his response would have been “Let’s take it to the Lord” and actually would have done it. It’s how we got the doctrine of Baptism by proxy and the Word of Wisdom. Hell, it’s how we got hte whole damn church.
And if they do take it to hte Lord they have to be open to it. As someone who can speak to the deceased my take is this. That stillborn babies are still connected to their parents. They are also able to be remortalized. The Spirit also revealed me that I was previously an abortion baby, but here I am. Take that as you will.
I just know that us Mormons are so good at limiting God.
Thank you Lady, I believe I understand on an intellectual level the danger of seeking revelations on issues. Every time we produce a revelation we say in essence, “This is how things work in heaven and this is how God wants them to work on earth.” This tends to discredit any other theories or ideas. We ratify one path and delegitimize all the other paths. This does the same thing that you and I chafe about in “limiting God.” I suppose at the end of the day I just want to know that God will never give up on us and that our heavenly parents will give us as many opportunities as necessary for us to reach our potential. Churches, covenants, and ordinances are useful tools – but at the end of the day they are not the only tools God has to work with.
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