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SilentDawning wrote:
I guess if you consider silence “No”, then he does answer every prayer — but that’s a pretty low standard.
😆 😆 😆 If you force all possible scenarios to fit your thesis then yes, God does answer all prayers.😆 😆 😆 Yes, that’s a bit of a double bind… It’s a bit like me getting sent a letter from Argentina (or wherever) and not writing back. The folks in Argentina wouldn’t know whether it had been lost in the mail or if I didn’t want to reply.
Like I said in the Bruce Almighty scenario I don’t think all prayers can be answered. If there is a very attractive person in the church, then it’s not unlikely several people might all be praying for that person to love them. It’s not going to happen. At least not all at the same time.
I suppose you could see a scenario in a country where one person prays for peace, another prays against the freedom fighters/terrorists and another prays for what they see as the foreign occupiers to concede and leave – that’s three contradictory requests.
Roy wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
I guess if you consider silence “No”, then he does answer every prayer — but that’s a pretty low standard.
😆 😆 😆 If you force all possible scenarios to fit your thesis then yes, God does answer all prayers.😆 😆 😆
I do see the humor in this and also chuckle at it along with many other little dogmatic things.
In seriousness though, answer to prayer was part of my faith crisis and the “all prayers are answered” dogma was the biggest part of that aspect the crisis because I was in a situation where silence was all that was happening…for months. It took me years to learn and let go of it, like other dogma.
I think you hit the nail on the head Roy and if it’s an if/then thing (perhaps to avoid the crisis) then
ifI believe all prayers are answered as I so often hear in church, thensilence must mean no because the prayer has to be answered. I think it’s either what you say – that people force all possible scenarios to fit their thesis – or an excuse/cop out, or all prayers really aren’t answered. My Deist view pushes me toward the latter because it fits, but during my more angry and cynical phases I went with the idea that it was a cop out. I still believe much of what I hear from those who believe all prayers are answered but can’t explain the silence (for example) are cop out excuses. FWIW I detest the “sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes it’s no, and sometimes it’s not yet” dogma – huge cop out. If God really answers prayers then why doesn’t God give you an answer you can understand? Is that what a loving parent would do? “Oh, I’ll just not answer my children’s repeated question/request, and they’ll figure out that my real answer is no or wait awhile.” [Stepping off the soapbox now.] (Note I was typing at the same time as Sam.)
I go down this line of questioning periodically. The painful root of my faith transition was that I felt that I had changed and was trying to connect to God understanding better my communication limitations and being willing to assume that answers that I thought were God speaking to me might just be me.
I was looking for reassurance and a stronger prompting of what it “feels” or “looks like” getting answers from God in this situation so that I could essentially re-calibrate communications. I had successfully done so with communications to my spouse and my mother – 2 of my strongest communication partners.
Instead, when I admitted that the feelings that I thought were God may not be – when I took that seriously, it as if the heavens closed to me.
I am hurt. I am confused. I have come to terms with the lack of communication. So, God and I don’t talk right now. I have nothing to say, and evidently, neither does God.
As a parent, if my daughters came to me and said, “Hi, I figured out where I haven’t been listening – please talk to me again so that I can practice and get more insights and information this time around. I want to hear your voice to separate it from others.” – I would have been all over that, talking their ears off.
Periodically, family members call me out on pride and urge me to talk to God. They think I am flippant for putting the ball in God’s court. They may or may not be looking in the sky for lightning bolts with my name on them. They also have reassurances that I will hear the voice of God eventually and that God knows where I am.
After 2.5 years, my husband finally gets it. For the first time (in forever), I did not get the pride talk for stating that showing up at church and being the best person I can be while waiting for an off chance that God shows up with a message for me was the narrative.
AmyJ wrote:
Instead, when I admitted that the feelings that I thought were God may not be – when I took that seriously, it as if the heavens closed to me.I am hurt. I am confused. I have come to terms with the lack of communication. So, God and I don’t talk right now. I have nothing to say, and evidently, neither does God.
This is very much where I’m at, although I can’t say I’m hurt or confused anymore those feelings were definitely present during my faith crisis. I do sometimes talk to God but I don’t expect an answer and I don’t ask for anything. If peace is an answer, I do feel peace often (but not always) when I pray. I’m OK with my current relationship with God – I don’t bother God, God doesn’t bother me (much like my former boss).
I’m going to step back on the soapbox because I apparently wasn’t really done before.
1) Parroting, which happens way too often in the church. Even GAs regularly do it. Someone really doesn’t have any direct experience with the topic, but they heard it so many times it must be true so they just repeat it. Or “The prophet said it, it must be true and worth repeating.”
2) Repetition to make it true. Related to parroting but also it’s own thing. If someone tells himself or herself (and testifies to others) enough times that something is true, it becomes true – no matter how ridiculously untrue it might be. (Note that I am using this in general, and I am not insinuating that no prayer has ever been answered or prayers can’t be answered – I believe some prayers probably are answered.)
3) Desire for it to be true. Again related to the above but it’s own thing also. Some people have to believe prayers are answered because they want them so badly to be answered. I think this is the root of the “no” or “wait” cop outs.
4) Related to 1, 2 & 3 but it’s own thing, I do believe some people believe all of their prayers actually are answered. Hard sell to me, who believes the total opposite, but perception is reality – if that’s what they perceive, that’s their reality.
I heard and read before that the purpose of prayer is not for God to grant or prayers but for us to align or will with God. In that sense no prayer is wasted, I am not sure if that answers the question though
SwedishLDS wrote:
I heard and read before that the purpose of prayer is not for God to grant or prayers but for us to align or will with God.In that sense no prayer is wasted, I am not sure if that answers the question though
I’m not sure I’ve heard that before. But I like it.
For those that may not know – the late Apostle Bruce R McConkie was responsible for putting together the “Study Helps” we use in the scripture. He is also the author of most of the commentary in the study helps. Quoting from Apostle McConkie in the Bible Dictionary under the topic of Prayer:
Quote:As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.
I have found this quote to contain divine revelation and I add my personal witness that there are blessings that are only obtained through individual fervent prayer.
In addition to many things that are said about prayer – I have found that when I face an important tasks that I kneel in prayer and present my plan to accomplish what I believe is needed. When I have completed my plan, I kneel again and report how things went. As a standard – in the morning I pray and present my plan for the day. At evening, I pray again and report how my day went. I have found that it is most difficult to pray for “improper” things and more so to report of things done that should not have been done. For myself – I find it most difficult to have a dishonest intent in my prayers and so my daily prayers often become a beginning of the process of repentance.
Watcher wrote:
I have found that when I face an important tasks that I kneel in prayer and present my plan to accomplish what I believe is needed. When I have completed my plan, I kneel again and report how things went. As a standard – in the morning I pray and present my plan for the day. At evening, I pray again and report how my day went.
That honestly sounds pretty amazing and helpful. I imagine that this would serve to make an individual more prepared and focused. The reporting in the evening can serve as time for review and recalibration for the future. This sounds like a good strategy to maximize your personal effectiveness. Thanks for sharing it.Roy wrote:
Watcher wrote:
I have found that when I face an important tasks that I kneel in prayer and present my plan to accomplish what I believe is needed. When I have completed my plan, I kneel again and report how things went. As a standard – in the morning I pray and present my plan for the day. At evening, I pray again and report how my day went.
That honestly sounds pretty amazing and helpful. I imagine that this would serve to make an individual more prepared and focused. The reporting in the evening can serve as time for review and recalibration for the future. This sounds like a good strategy to maximize your personal effectiveness. Thanks for sharing it.
Perhaps I ought to share how this was started in my life. Likely not what many might think. I thought I had an excellent understanding of prayer in my teenager years. I also enjoyed dating and was what many would call a “player”. I had gotten a date with one of the most popular girls at my high school and of course I was bragging about this among my guy friends and acquaintances. One thing led to another, and I was challenged to get a kiss on the first date.
My best friend gave me an additional challenge to make a plan and pray about it. I had several successful encounters in prayer (but up to this point my prayers were centered on religious concerns and personal needs). I had never thought to have a serious prayer about things that were not all that serious in my mind.
I planned the perfect date – with flowers for my date as well as her mom. Just before I left for my date I went to my room and presented my plan in prayer to my Father in Heaven. I figured G-d knew me, and what I was thinking so I did not try to hide anything. I asked if He would assist me with my plan. Things went far better than I expected but only for a little while. Without going into all the details my date started to cry and told me about a personal problem she was having – because she thought I was such a “nice” guy – especially to her.
The kiss never happened but the date turned out to be a very spiritual event for both of us. We became good friends – just not in any romantic way (which was the first time I had a girlfriend without romance intended or involved. That night, following the date I knelt again by my bed and talked about what happened. It was the first time that I remember having the impression that G-d was pleased with me. I prayed about every date after that.
A few years later I was in the army and found myself in a serious situation that I was not sure I would survive. I decided to use the method of prayer I discovered for dating. I was impressed to make changes to my plan. I discovered that I could receive guidance in making plans as much as in attempting to carry out such.
For me, it has been the most powerful influence to bring me closer to understanding G-d and what I can do to draw closer to Him. Whenever I hear someone claim that G-d does not answer their prayers – the only thing I am convinced of is that they have not learned how to listen.
I am glad for your experience and the effect it has had on your life watcher. It actually has numerous similarities to a talk Elder Richard G. Scott gave when I was a missionary in Chile. Incidentally, I was privilidged to hear versions of the same talk several times and was fascinated by the differences in the telling based on the audience etc. The theme of the talk was how to receive personal revelation. Watcher wrote:
Whenever I hear someone claim that G-d does not answer their prayers – the only thing I am convinced of is that they have not learned how to listen.
I think that it is important that we learn to believe others in describing their experience even if we do not understand it. It is a way of showing respect that we make room for their experience, their story, and their truth. This fundamentally requires that we conceptualize of a reality where our version of truth is not the only version of truth and that people with other versions of truth are not liars or deceived or even possessors of lessor truth that may someday learn of our higher level of truth.
Specifically as it relates to the mission of StayLDS, we cannot just tell people that are having a hard time that they are doing it wrong. That is not respectful of their experience and their ability to properly understand it.
From the rules of Etiquette section:
Quote:Please feel free to disagree with anyone. Nobody here has all the answers. We can all benefit from being challenged. This is not a debate club though. There is no winning or losing. Please try to stay supportive and positive with those who might not believe the same way…
The List of Don’ts…
Please do not start discussions that lead to a debate with the results of finding the one correct answer to a problem. Topics like this will probably be moderated.
Topics and comments should not portray the beliefs of others (traditional Mormon, non-believers or those of other religions) in a disrespectful manner. This violates the mission and spirit of our community, and content like that will probably be moderated or removed.
Roy wrote:
I am glad for your experience and the effect it has had on your life watcher. It actually has numerous similarities to a talk Elder Richard G. Scott gave when I was a missionary in Chile. Incidentally, I was privilidged to hear versions of the same talk several times and was fascinated by the differences in the telling based on the audience etc. The theme of the talk was how to receive personal revelation.Watcher wrote:
Whenever I hear someone claim that G-d does not answer their prayers – the only thing I am convinced of is that they have not learned how to listen.
I think that it is important that we learn to believe others in describing their experience even if we do not understand it. It is a way of showing respect that we make room for their experience, their story, and their truth. This fundamentally requires that we conceptualize of a reality where our version of truth is not the only version of truth and that people with other versions of truth are not liars or deceived or even possessors of lessor truth that may someday learn of our higher level of truth.
Specifically as it relates to the mission of StayLDS, we cannot just tell people that are having a hard time that they are doing it wrong. That is not respectful of their experience and their ability to properly understand it.
From the rules of Etiquette section:
Quote:Please feel free to disagree with anyone. Nobody here has all the answers. We can all benefit from being challenged. This is not a debate club though. There is no winning or losing. Please try to stay supportive and positive with those who might not believe the same way…
The List of Don’ts…
Please do not start discussions that lead to a debate with the results of finding the one correct answer to a problem. Topics like this will probably be moderated.
Topics and comments should not portray the beliefs of others (traditional Mormon, non-believers or those of other religions) in a disrespectful manner. This violates the mission and spirit of our community, and content like that will probably be moderated or removed.
Thank you, Roy. This is not the first time I have been pointed to etiquette. Perhaps this is not a forum for me to speak openly. I am driven by logic and even within the confines of religious notions – if I cannot connect to the logic of it, I cannot understand it or believe it to be true.
This thread asks a simple question about G-d answering every prayer. This appears to be to be a question demanding binary logic of either yes or no. This kind of binary answers are opposites with no intersecting possibilities. I see no possibilities of answer without some inference that one answer is believed to be right and the other wrong.
I understand that any challenge to logic implies that there is an error in logic which implies a “wrong” conclusion. I also believe that I cannot test or improve my logic unless there is a challenge to it. In short, I can only learn from someone of a different opinion at some level. Thanks again for your corrections.
Yes, friend. I do believe there is an error in logic. In your personal experiences, you have felt things that you interpret as answers to your prayers from G-d. I celebrate with you that you have had these experiences and feel close to G-d in the process.
You seem to assume that G-d interacts with everyone in the same way and extrapolate that if only people followed the same steps or formula that you have used then they would receive the same result.
Other individuals’ experiences just do not prove that theory. We can 1) believe them that they followed the steps and received a different result or we can 2) discredit and disbelieve them by insisting that they must have made a mistake.
It can be tempting to discredit those individuals because it allows us avoid questioning our assumptions. That is one way to solve the problem and it is a viable way to subside the cognitive dissonance. It reminds me of a missionary telling me that their smoking cessation program had a 100% success rate for those that really wanted to quit. It is really easy to protect your success rate if you dismiss all those that are unsuccessful as simply not wanting it badly enough, or applying the program correctly, or that they have “not learned how to listen” properly.
It can be tempting but it is also disrespectful of those individuals being disbelieved and discredited and that is why it runs afoul of our rules of etiquette.
I’m in process of reading a book titled: “When Heaven Feels Distant” by Tyler J Griffin. He is an Associate Teaching Professor at BYU. If you’re looking for something to read this summer, I recommend this book. In this book Prof. Griffin quotes a talk by Elder Bednar
titled: “Seek Learning by Faith”. In his talk, Elder Bednar said the following:
“I have observed a common characteristic among the instructors who have had the greatest influence in my life. They have helped
me to seek learning by faith. They refused to give me easy answers to hard questions. In fact, they did not give me any answers at all.
Rather, they pointed the way and helped me take the steps to find my own answers. I certainly did not always appreciate this approach,
but experience has enabled me to understand that an answer given by another person usually is not remembered for very long, if
remembered at all. But an answer we discover or obtain through the exercise of faith, typically, is retained for a lifetime.
“The most important learnings of life are caught–not taught.“ I wonder if this applies to our prayers as well.
In a previous post, I said that, to me, this life is meant to be a classroom.
This quote reinforces my view.
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