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johnh wrote:
I must have missed the not for the world to know part
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When Joseph was with his brother Hyrum and other leaders , Hyrum asked Joseph to tell everyone how the BOM was translated. He said it was not for the world to know.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/01/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng
Quote:
Many who read the Book of Mormon understandably desire to know more about its coming forth, including the actual process of translation. This was certainly so with faithful and loyal Hyrum Smith. Upon inquiring, Hyrum was told by the Prophet Joseph that “it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon” and that “it was not expedient for him to relate these things” (History of the Church, 1:220). Thus what we do know about the actual coming forth of the Book of Mormon is adequate, but it is not comprehensive.DBMormon wrote:johnh wrote:I must have missed the not for the world to know part
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
When Joseph was with his brother Hyrum and other leaders , Hyrum asked Joseph to tell everyone how the BOM was translated. He said it was not for the world to know.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/01/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng
Quote:
Many who read the Book of Mormon understandably desire to know more about its coming forth, including the actual process of translation. This was certainly so with faithful and loyal Hyrum Smith. Upon inquiring, Hyrum was told by the Prophet Joseph that “it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon” and that “it was not expedient for him to relate these things” (History of the Church, 1:220). Thus what we do know about the actual coming forth of the Book of Mormon is adequate, but it is not comprehensive.Cough, cough, cough.
Perhaps there’s a principle in that. It would probably be better if we had no idea at all how it happened, just turned up with a book one day.
Unfortunately Joseph didn’t reckon on avid historians pouring through eyewitness journals and the advent of the internet to piece it all together.
Reality is that we have a better than perhaps Joseph ever intended. Now that the cat is out of the bag, the church needs to deal with it and get on with it. Or they can bury their head in the hat (sorry… sand) and hope the majority don’t look into it too much.
mackay11 wrote:DBMormon wrote:johnh wrote:I must have missed the not for the world to know part
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
When Joseph was with his brother Hyrum and other leaders , Hyrum asked Joseph to tell everyone how the BOM was translated. He said it was not for the world to know.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/01/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng
Quote:
Many who read the Book of Mormon understandably desire to know more about its coming forth, including the actual process of translation. This was certainly so with faithful and loyal Hyrum Smith. Upon inquiring, Hyrum was told by the Prophet Joseph that “it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon” and that “it was not expedient for him to relate these things” (History of the Church, 1:220). Thus what we do know about the actual coming forth of the Book of Mormon is adequate, but it is not comprehensive.Cough, cough, cough.
Perhaps there’s a principle in that. It would probably be better if we had no idea at all how it happened, just turned up with a book one day.
Unfortunately Joseph didn’t reckon on avid historians pouring through eyewitness journals and the advent of the internet to piece it all together.
Reality is that we have a better than perhaps Joseph ever intended. Now that the cat is out of the bag, the church needs to deal with it and get on with it. Or they can bury their head in the hat (sorry… sand) and hope the majority don’t look into it too much.
What do you see as the problem with how the translation occurred that is damaging to you? While I agree the Church is not anxious to shout seer stones from rooftops but I don’t see how the seer stone version is any less miraculous. I am curious of your thoughts
For me the seer stone method completely eliminates the needs of the plate being written, JS having to obtain them, the witnesses and Lehi and his family coming to the Americas. If he didn’t need the plates why bother with the rest? church0333 wrote:For me the seer stone method completely eliminates the needs of the plate being written, JS having to obtain them, the witnesses and Lehi and his family coming to the Americas. If he didn’t need the plates why bother with the rest?
You echo my thoughts perfectly. Why would God purposely complicate things with physical plates just to provide direct revelation?Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
unless for Joseph to see the possibility and to have faith in the process, he had to be convinced of it’s reality DBMormon wrote:unless for Joseph to see the possibility and to have faith in the process, he had to be convinced of it’s reality
I dont know about you but a visit or 2 with angels, God and Jesus would do it for me…Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
Wouldn’t God the father and Christ appearing to JS be enough? I’m not saying you might not be right but it still doesn’t set right with me. I have to say I am with church and eman on this one. The whole two sets of plates thing, the whole hiding the plates from would be treasure hunters…just so they can sit there with a blanket on them while Joseph used a peepstone? Seems strange indeed…and If god shows up and asks me to do something…pretty sure I don’t need proof anymore
Maybe it was to convince the early witnesses of the story so Joseph could secure resources for printing, etc. ?
There is a long and ancient tradition of channeling revelation through physical objects. It seems really weird to many people now, being so removed from that tradition, but it was real and vibrant for a very long time – and it’s not all that different than Catholics and rosary beads. What’s the title of the great book about Joseph Smith and the magical world view of his time? I’m drawing a complete blank right now, but it is a great treatment of the subject.
By the way, I tend to lean towards the plates being a tool JS devised to foster faith from others. It just seems to me that for JS the ends justified the means. eman wrote:By the way, I tend to lean towards the plates being a tool JS devised to foster faith from others. It just seems to me that for JS the ends justified the means.
While some evidence leads one to see it in that light, there is also a lot of evidence that says something outside of that perceived paradigm is occuring. For it to be a hoax, it has to be perhaps the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind which also makes it highly unlikely. Either way it is a stretch to make the facts fit any one particular view. So I see it as being what he claimed it was as just as likely as he fabricated plates and conned Sidney Rigdon into having part in the D&C 76, made cowdery feel he was really being ordained by angelic visitors, make Harris sign over the farm, have cowdery see Jesus in the Kirtland Temple, make the witnesses hold to their testimony despite their disaffection….. Produce a chapter long chiasism in Alma 36, and a 100 others… when added up together, fabrication also becomes unlikely
I don’t mean necessarily that the BoM is a “hoax” or all the other event. I simply meant the plates themselves. Perhaps (and I’m not stuck on this idea by any means) he really did create some “gold” plates and so when others saw them there really was something to see. As for the 3 witness, not sure. Thanks for pointing out the holes in this otherwise perfectly reasonable explanation DB! :crazy: I just haven’t heard and can’t think of another reason for having the plates along with all the difficulties there if he wasn’t even going to use them.Old-Timer wrote:There is a long and ancient tradition of channeling revelation through physical objects. It seems really weird to many people now, being so removed from that tradition, but it was real and vibrant for a very long time – and it’s not all that different than Catholics and rosary beads.
What’s the title of the great book about Joseph Smith and the magical world view of his time? I’m drawing a complete blank right now, but it is a great treatment of the subject.
I think you mean “Early Mormonisim and the magic world view.” I understand the idea of channeling revelation through a physical object, which is why I think JS used seer stones. But why would he need a set of plates as well?
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