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Looking at suffering as a good thing is either a privilege of those who suffer less than others or a coping skill to keep from shattering. I know people who have suffered horribly. It broke some of them, in multiple, terrible ways. There was nothing redemptive in it.
So, in summary: Everything is what we make of it – but we don’t all have the ability to choose what we make of it – and, sometimes, it makes of us what we don’t want to become.
This is a primary reason I believe so deeply in grace.
Old-Timer wrote:
Looking at suffering as a good thing is either a privilege of those who suffer less than others or a coping skill to keep from shattering.I know people who have suffered horribly. It broke some of them, in multiple, terrible ways. There was nothing redemptive in it.
So, in summary: Everything is what we make of it – but we don’t all have the ability to choose what we make of it – and, sometimes, it makes of us what we don’t want to become.
This is a primary reason I believe so deeply in grace.
I thought to pose a question for the forum and I determined that your post may be the best to use. I hope that you do not think I am picking on you – this is not my intent. It seems to me that most posters on this forum are quite resistant to suffering as both necessary and a divinely inspired benefit for our mortal experience. Thus, my question is not just to you but the forum. My question is not just a single question but rather a series of loaded questions. Please allow me to begin:
1. Is the Plan of Salvation given of G-d?
2. Is the fall of Man a necessary element of the divinely created Plan of Salvation? (The obvious option is that if the fall is not necessary then the Plan of Salvation has a serious flaw – which implies that G-d and his plan for mankind is flawed)
3. Is it possible that man could fall from the grace of G-d and his Kingdom of heaven and not experience suffering? (Granted that grace is restored via the Atonement of Christ but we have many historical accounts of both ancient and modern Saints that suffered many seemingly unreasonable inflictions of pain – including physical, mental, spiritual and emotional)
Are we not told in scripture that during our mortal experience that we ought to have faith and be believing and all things will turn out for our good? Please note that there is not an exception given for any act of suffering regardless of the seeming uselessness of it.
And so, my final question is – should we not have joy (or be able to find joy) in encountering that which will turn out for our good and benefit? Could the reason that joy is not experience because of lack of faith and believing? Is it possible that finding joy is greatly different than having fun or being amused?
Way too many questions of very different topics for one post. If you want to discuss these questions, it would be better to have a focused discussion for each one. Also, if the purpose is to try to preach a particular view or just a mental exercise with doctrines as the foundation, this is not the right forum. This is a support group, not primarily a place merely to discuss or debate doctrine. Doctrinal discussions occur, but it should be in the context of our mission.
When I am reunited with my Heavenly Parents I believe that They will cry with me for the pain and suffering that I experienced while on earth. It doesn’t matter that the pain was temporary or that the losses will be recovered in the next life. The pain is real and should not be dismissed or minimized.
Tears can be healing. Once we have a good cry together then I can feel known and understood. That is an important first step for me.
There are scriptures that could be used to bolster my feeling but ultimately my approach rests upon what feels right to me. I respect that others may have different ideas and different feelings.
Old-Timer wrote:
Also, if the purpose is to try to preach a particular view or just a mental exercise with doctrines as the foundation, this is not the right forum. This is a support group, not primarily a place merely to discuss or debate doctrine. Doctrinal discussions occur, but it should be in the context of our mission.
I agree with Old Timer here Watcher. By your own admission your questions are loaded, and clearly designed to bring us to one answer – your point of view. The flaw is that some of your questions could have different answers than what is taught in Sunday School. For example, I don’t necessarily believe we’re fallen from grace and that’s not the meaning of the fall of Adam. Either way, I believe the so called fall was necessary and planned and part of what we all knew and agreed to in the premortal council, and it was not a horrible tragedy.
That said I also agree with Roy. I hope and believe my reunion with my Heavenly Parents will be a wondrous event beyond mortal description. The God who weeps does so not because we have offended God with sin but because of that which we have had to endure.
DarkJedi wrote:
Old-Timer wrote:
Also, if the purpose is to try to preach a particular view or just a mental exercise with doctrines as the foundation, this is not the right forum. This is a support group, not primarily a place merely to discuss or debate doctrine. Doctrinal discussions occur, but it should be in the context of our mission.
I agree with Old Timer here Watcher. By your own admission your questions are loaded, and clearly designed to bring us to one answer – your point of view. The flaw is that some of your questions could have different answers than what is taught in Sunday School. For example, I don’t necessarily believe we’re fallen from grace and that’s not the meaning of the fall of Adam. Either way, I believe the so called fall was necessary and planned and part of what we all knew and agreed to in the premortal council, and it was not a horrible tragedy.
That said I also agree with Roy. I hope and believe my reunion with my Heavenly Parents will be a wondrous event beyond mortal description. The God who weeps does so not because we have offended God with sin but because of that which we have had to endure.
Thank you for your post. I am honored that you have taken time to respond. I am an individual that is very driven with logic. I find, especially in the Gospel of John, the logic Jesus uses in dealing with the Scribes and Pharisees to be of great interest and importance – usually pointing to a singular conclusion quite different than what is generally excepted by those in authority at the time. It is also interesting to me that his logic and suggestions greatly inflamed the Scribes and Pharisees.
I will try to explain some of my logic. As a scientist I find that our universe is very hostile towards mortal life as we understand it. It appears to me that mortal life is a great exception in our universe and not and inevitable evolutionary conclusion. I say this as a believer in evolution – that all life on earth has evolved from a single source. The problem is that for all our efforts we only have proof of life here on earth and even though life exists here – over 99% of the species that have existed here have become extinct. Even our earth is extremely hostile towards mortal life as we understand it. Everything living here will eventually die. There is, I believe, a preponderance of evidence that nothing in this universe is consistently merciful towards any mortal life as we understand it. Death, which appears to be the ultimate non merciful result to mortal life as we understand it – is inevitable and without any exception. This is why I believe we have fallen from grace.
However, I do not believe all is lost. I believe that our intelligence continues beyond death of our mortal self. I believe you agree, judging from what I understand of your posts. I believe the greatest and most honest support we can offer to each other is that there is reason for joy in the obviously difficult journey we are taking as mortals. I suggest we begin by becoming thankful toward G-d for all our mortal life opportunities. I understand you are an individual of authority in this forum. I am considering your suggestion that I no longer post on this forum and I am very thankful and intend to provide my best support while I am allowed to post.
Hi Watcher, I know that you are a strong believer in logic. I think that it is important to recognize that you have some significant assumptions before the logical thinking begins. Assumptions: 1) G-d exists 2) G-d created us 3) G-d is loving and merciful and would create a paradise for us to live in 4) Our lives are eternal. Fact: Our mortal experience is not a loving and merciful paradise. Logic rationalization: There might have been some sort of “fall” where the paradise world was lost and death began – but maybe paradise can be restored some day (perhaps we can enjoy it in the next life).
I am perfectly fine with assumptions. I have them too and I call it faith. I just think that it is important to recognize my assumptions to help me avoid the idea that if other people were more logical then they might arrive at the same conclusion as me.
Watcher wrote:
I understand you are an individual of authority in this forum. I am considering your suggestion that I no longer post on this forum and I am very thankful and intend to provide my best support while I am allowed to post.
We do not tend to prohibit people from participating in the forum as long as they can follow the rules and that their posts generally follow the mission of the StayLDS site. We are primarily a support group for people in faith crisis and an important part of that is through showing empathy and validation for their experiences.
I haven’t really thought about it. I know I don’t really buy the idea that it’s to prove ourselves to God.
I know that one thing I work on regularly is maintaining my inner peace. I see that as a worthy goal. And I use EMDR therapy and gratitude as my main two “weapons” against disturbed inner peace.
Watcher wrote:
I am considering your suggestion that I no longer post on this forum and I am very thankful and intend to provide my best support while I am allowed to post.
I don’t think Old Timer’s thoughts are along the lines of you not posting here, and I know mine are not. We really do appreciate all diverse points of view and often lack the more orthodox perspective being voiced (even though we all know that perspective). I think our point is more that posts be relevant to the mission of the forum – supporting those who are seeking help with their own questions, doubts, and struggles with different aspects of the church or the gospel. While open discussion on church and gospel topics are welcome and encouraged, it should generally be for the edification and support of those struggling, presenting different points of view and not just for the sake of having the discussion or debate. There are other forums where debate is welcome and encouraged, but here it should be in context. It should also be noted that as admins and moderators we are very aware that there are many visitors that never log in, the “lurkers.” We want them to feel welcome and validated as well and we never want this to be a hostile or “anti” place because there are plenty of those out there. This is meant to be a safe place for those who struggle, whether they post or not.
Generally speaking topic posts should be more like “I’m struggling with tithing seeing as the church has billions of dollars tucked away” or “I’m not sure Joseph Smith was really a prophet considering some of the stuff I’ve found out he did that aren’t taught in seminary of Sunday School” or “I’ve never felt anything about the Book of Mormon and I’m not sure it is what it says it is.”
Roy wrote:
The biological imperative is to procreate. Thus the purpose of life is to create/perpetuate life.Watcher wrote:
it is impossible to conclude that there is justice, mercy or any reason for hope.
I wouldn’t say that. There is justice and mercy and hope in our mortal lives and human institutions – just not perfect justice, perfect mercy, and perfect hope.
Watcher wrote:
When I finished school and obtained my first job in what I thought would be my life profession – I wanted to accomplish something important. Within two weeks I had solved a difficult problem and received a letter of commendation from the division manager. I was so excited I contacted my older brother (an exceptional individual that was officially believed to be a genius). He looked at the letter without reading it and asked if I received any money as a bonus? I told him I had not. He told me the put the letter in the trash because apparently it was not worth a cent to anyone else.I have pondered that much of what many desire out of mortal life (especially praise from others) like my letter – really is not worth anything of real or lasting value. I wonder what others expect to get out of their mortal experience.
I think that to some, the commendation letter could have significant meaning. I have a friend that was employee of the month. He later had to stop working because of crippling anxiety. His post about winning the award came up on his facebook “memory” and I commented that the award was well deserved. He responded that it was the highlight of his life so far. If my friend’s life is more meaningful because of this award then that can only be a good thing (and far be it for me to minimize it in any way).
What has real or lasting value? For me the answer lies in relationships. When I die I hope to be rich in relationships. I believe that this is the moral behind the classic tale, “A Christmas Carol.”
I apologize for the late response. When I posted about the purpose of our mortal life, I was asking the question regarding what about our mortal life is necessary that we cannot get with any other experience in eternity. Obviously, I did not make that point clearly. I do not mean to criticize any of the things you have listed as important because the obviously are. What I intended to do is isolate what is critical and unique to our mortal life experience. And why other things that are important are important because of our understanding that there is meaningful intelligence outside of what we can decipher between what we experience between birth and death.
What you quoted from me about justice, mercy and hope left out a critical dimension. I implied that without any possibility of existence before birth and after death there is insufficient data considering mortal life only that justice, mercy and hope has any more benefit from humans than any other species that have existed on this planet. I purport that prior to the human species on earth – other life forms did just as well or better than with the advancements of intelligence concerning the matters of justice, mercy and hope that appears to me mostly a concern unique to the human species. This would also indicate that if the human species were to become extinct that other life on earth would and could thrive on their own without justice, mercy, or hope. Some even argued that perhaps the remaining species would be better off without any human intervention. I doubt than any other species would ever concern themselves with our human concern for commendations within our species.
To be clear – I do not intend to discourage anyone about their human experience but rather to bring into focus the importance of understanding how such things such as justice, mercy and hope are justified more and given traction with a belief that regardless of our mortal experience there is justice, mercy and hope beyond or outside of mortal life. Or as the Apostle Paul said, “if we have hope in this life only we are of all men most miserable.”
PazamaManX wrote:
Watcher wrote:
My first step in determining what possible intent all mortal life must experience – was to determine what every mortal must (regardless of all things possible) experience. In other words, what is the lowest common denominator for all mortals. As I listed in the initial post – I could only come up with two must happen experiences. The first is to obtain a physical body. The second is the experience of suffering pain and death.
That works for a minimum of what the purpose of life is. Though once your born, and you know you’re going to die at some point, that leaves you to figure out what the purpose is for the in between stuff.
I don’t agree that suffering is one of the purposes of life. There may be a point to it, and we can grow from it certainly. But I had the same thought as nibbler; just because everyone experiences it, I wouldn’t say that means it’s the purpose of why we’re here. Sure there is suffering, but not all of life is suffering. There are good experiences that don’t require any suffering to experience. Which is why my answer was what it was. Our lives are so varied, that if there is any purpose to it, only He knows.
Perhaps some of our experiences are for our benefit, maybe some are for the benefit of others. And maybe those who die as infants were those who didn’t need to experience anything in this life. Again, only He knows.
Watcher wrote:
As I thought on this subject – I had the thought the perhaps we should choose to learn to enjoy our trials and so I shared that thought. My wife was a little upset with this comment and said to me that it cannot be a trial if we are enjoying it.
I agree with your wife. In a similar vein, hearing comments at church where people say things like, “I always ask myself, ‘What can I learn from this trial?’ or ‘What is Heavenly Father trying to teach me?’.”, has always bothered me. Trying to have a detached view of trials may help with smaller stuff. But, I doubt anyone can do that at the death bed of loved one. The ability to do that would be psychopathic.
Watcher wrote:Perhaps I should give a little background to how I was taught by my parents. A saying of my parents was that the secret of life is not achieving what you want but in learning to love doing the right things that will enviably bring or result in what you want. My father who was born poor ended up very wealthy would often have individuals come to him for advice on how to become wealthy. His answer was always the same and was a two-step process. The first step he said was to learn to love and enjoy hard work. Do not learn to endure work but to find joy in doing the tasks that others avoid. The truth is that if you cannot find joy in something – you will eventually quit doing it.
The second step is to learn to love taking a portion of your earning and investing it. He would tell people that if you cannot find joy in these two steps – you will never be happy. You will ether be unhappy because you “have to” work or you will be unhappy because you do not have enough money to do what you want and love doing.
That reminds me of the ’embrace the suck’ mentality you find in the military. It’s good for tough but beneficial things like exercise, work and investing. I try to incorporate that in my own life. But for things that are truly trying, things that hit you in your emotional core and there are no apparent benefits to it, that mentality falls short.
I posted this as a response previously but outside of suffering – what is it that we can get out of this life that we cannot get from any other experience in all of eternity? Again I do not want to discridit all the good things you are suggesting except to wonder if such thing cannot be learned outside of mortal life. I am asking what is it we need to get our of our mortal existence that we cannot get with any other experience?
Roy wrote:
Hi Watcher,I know that you are a strong believer in logic. I think that it is important to recognize that you have some significant assumptions before the logical thinking begins. Assumptions: 1) G-d exists 2) G-d created us 3) G-d is loving and merciful and would create a paradise for us to live in 4) Our lives are eternal. Fact: Our mortal experience is not a loving and merciful paradise. Logic rationalization: There might have been some sort of “fall” where the paradise world was lost and death began – but maybe paradise can be restored some day (perhaps we can enjoy it in the next life).
I am perfectly fine with assumptions. I have them too and I call it faith. I just think that it is important to recognize my assumptions to help me avoid the idea that if other people were more logical then they might arrive at the same conclusion as me.
Watcher wrote:
I understand you are an individual of authority in this forum. I am considering your suggestion that I no longer post on this forum and I am very thankful and intend to provide my best support while I am allowed to post.
We do not tend to prohibit people from participating in the forum as long as they can follow the rules and that their posts generally follow the mission of the StayLDS site. We are primarily a support group for people in faith crisis and an important part of that is through showing empathy and validation for their experiences.
I have come to realize that humans are unique and often in our communications we are ambiguous. When you say that this forum is primary a support group for people in faith crisis – that statement can mean many different things to many different people. In the Book of Mormon, the ancient prophet Moroni concludes his last remarks to the people of this day in Moroni chapter 10. This prophetic work cannot be to anyone else but those that live in our unique time that are the “last days”. He highlights his comments with the strong term “exhort” several times. His point is that each person that comes into this mortal life with spiritual gifts that can be utilized to uplift and support all people – including those that are or are not currently in a faith crisis.
This forum is also called “staylds” so I assume that LDS principles are at the foundations of religious understanding. This is why I reference them. Perhaps I have misunderstood what it means to support those in faith crisis. If support means to oppose all those that have faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ and the restoration of his church in these last days and do not consider themselves in faith crisis; then as a champion of latter-day revelations – I would logically be seen as contrary to such support. As an expert in logic and science – I see the greatest support to humanity to be truth and logic. I do not believe that truth and logic is possible with one and not the other. That one can only possess truth with logic and logic with truth.
At the same time, I am a champion of agency. That every individual has the right to determine their individual belief and how that knowledge can shape who and what they are. However, I do not believe that being stable in one’s beliefs is a faith crisis but rather the opposite of it. I believe that to exercise agency one must have knowledge and that agency is destroyed with lies and ignorance. I have also learned that in the scientific world the best means to explorer ideas and their value is through critical peer reviews. That just presenting the logic one employed to reach their conclusions is one of the best means I have experienced in arriving at the most useful conclusions. If this scientific method is contrary or seen as contrary support for people in faith crisis. I may not be seen or understood as support. If so I apologize and will not feel badly if asked to take my opinions elsewhere.
Watcher wrote:I posted this as a response previously but outside of suffering – what is it that we can get out of this life that we cannot get from any other experience in all of eternity? Again I do not want to discridit all the good things you are suggesting except to wonder if such thing cannot be learned outside of mortal life.
That’s a very good point, and I do see your logic. I agree that suffering is certainly a big component of life and that there is purpose in it. But, I personally stop short of saying it is THE purpose. That’s an idea I can see going off the rails if internalized the wrong way by the wrong person. It also isn’t the most comforting thought when you’re in the middle of the worst suffering that life has to offer (disease, death, etc.), as I mentioned earlier. It isn’t comforting for me at least.
Quote:I am asking what is it we need to get our of our mortal existence that we cannot get with any other experience?
Perhaps this might be seen by some as a cop out or mentally lazy, but my answer is only He knows. We are all so different, as are our lives, and He knows and understands us better than we do ourselves. As I mentioned in your relationship with God thread, I’m content to trust He is in control of everything and only He knows the purpose. Pinning the complexity of life down into a single reason, or even a few reasons, for why we are here is a fruitless exercise for me.
Watcher, judging by your above comments and a comment on another thread I’m not sure you understand what a faith crisis is. “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” Faith crises are not unique to the CoJCoLDS. Catholics, Jews, and Protestants (and probably others) can also suffer from faith crises. The more unique parts about some Mormons in faith crisis are the added dimensions of things unique to the church – Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, polygamy, the one true church rhetoric, and treatment of Blacks and LGBTQ+ people to name a few.
In a nutshell a crisis of faith occurs when an individual questions everything they had regarded as true/correct and feel they can no longer trust or believe God. Often the crisis occurs because of an event, but not necessarily – it could be that “stuff” just piled up on a shelf and the shelf broke (an oft used metaphor). People in faith crisis may question the existence of God or whether they believe in God. They may question why bad things happen or why God allows such heinous things as child abuse while at the same time sends good people to hell. Especially within the CoJCoLDS where doctrine/theology are very clear and taught from an early age, they may question their trust of church leaders and church members in general. Often they feel lied to or betrayed by those they thought they could trust the most. Faith crisis is a real
traumaticspiritual/psychological (and often physical) condition deeply affecting one’s well being and usually goes on for a long, long time (often months and years). It shakes one to the core. An older but still sometimes used name for the situation is “shaken faith syndrome,” I believe coined by Michael Ash who wrote a book by that title. I have read the book and it is more Mormon specific and more focused on historical questions and doubts as opposed to more dogmatic or general theological issues. I prefer faith crisis because it more clearly defines the situation – crisis. Faith crisis is usually followed by faith transition (which can sometimes happen without crisis) but the transition could be to no faith (atheism) or very different faith/beliefs than what one previously held. For some Mormons (and I do know of Catholics and Jews in this situation as well) the transition is to a more cultural or social relationship as opposed to an overt spiritual relationship. That is, the individuals may still freely associate and remain “active” in the faith community but not have a belief, or have limited belief, in the doctrinal/theological aspect. Many members are comfortable with LDS culture because it’s their tribe, it’s what they know. Not all of them also believe in all the church teachings/doctrine/theology/beliefs (and some don’t believe any of it). Watcher wrote:
This forum is also called “staylds” so I assume that LDS principles are at the foundations of religious understanding. This is why I reference them. Perhaps I have misunderstood what it means to support those in faith crisis. If support means to oppose all those that have faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ and the restoration of his church in these last days and do not consider themselves in faith crisis; then as a champion of latter-day revelations – I would logically be seen as contrary to such support.In light of the above, this is where I think your lack of understanding of faith crisis and making some assumptions about the forum get you off base. There are a variety of reasons people want to StayLDS, family relationships being a prevalent and important one. It is much less about clinging to “truths” and doctrines/teachings/dogma than it is about seeking a way to find inner peace and maintain relationships with family, the church and its people. Support does not mean pushing anti-Mormon ideas (and in fact we’re adamantly oppose to that and will quickly and heavily moderate such). It does mean that if someone comes here and says they don’t believe in [fill-in-the-blank] that we will listen to them, validate as much as possible, and not attempt to convince them otherwise. None of us here believe all of it and some believe none of it. But all of us want to maintain relationships with our families, friends and the church in general to some extent. We mostly see the church as good and see the church does good. LDS “principles” are not necessarily the foundation of that nor are they necessarily the foundation of any individual’s understanding here. It’s really not about the church itself as much as it is about culture and relationships. If we can help someone come to the place of their own understanding on a particular church teaching, that’s great – but it’s still up the the individual to internalize it on their own. I dare say no two of us here are in total agreement or have exactly the same beliefs about anything church related.
I’m not saying this place is inappropriate for you, I am saying there’s certain protocols we follow here and we expect everyone to follow them. A main consideration in that respect is not criticizing or questioning anything someone else believes or doesn’t believe. Another main consideration is that we don’t argue or contend with one another and we don’t “bait” one another. This is a safe place. If someone can’t or won’t do those things they should probably consider moving to place where their ideas are more acceptable.
PazamaManX wrote:
Watcher wrote:I posted this as a response previously but outside of suffering – what is it that we can get out of this life that we cannot get from any other experience in all of eternity? Again I do not want to discridit all the good things you are suggesting except to wonder if such thing cannot be learned outside of mortal life.
That’s a very good point, and I do see your logic. I agree that suffering is certainly a big component of life and that there is purpose in it. But, I personally stop short of saying it is THE purpose. That’s an idea I can see going off the rails if internalized the wrong way by the wrong person. It also isn’t the most comforting thought when you’re in the middle of the worst suffering that life has to offer (disease, death, etc.), as I mentioned earlier. It isn’t comforting for me at least.
Quote:I am asking what is it we need to get our of our mortal existence that we cannot get with any other experience?
Perhaps this might be seen by some as a cop out or mentally lazy, but my answer is only He knows. We are all so different, as are our lives, and He knows and understands us better than we do ourselves. As I mentioned in your relationship with God thread, I’m content to trust He is in control of everything and only He knows the purpose. Pinning the complexity of life down into a single reason, or even a few reasons, for why we are here is a fruitless exercise for me.
All very good points. I believe and agree that we should take advantage of every experience we get in this life. I have done a lot of whitewater rafting, but I am getting old and trying to pass on what I have learned to others. I was training a new rafting guide for certification this summer (hopefully my last) because it is time for others to take over. I gave the new guide one particular opinion – that is – that regardless of whatever has happened, good or bad, the most important thing for them to focus on is to look down stream to prepare and get ready for what is coming next. I have found, for me, this work quite well for life in general.
I give one point of opinion to our discussion. I not sure that it is all that profitable to place everything at the feet of G-d or to blame him for all that happens. I do believe that we mortals are at a great disadvantage in understanding life and that G-d knows much more than we now do. But I have pondered that there was a pre-existence and that we – using our agency – planned out our lives and particularly the most difficult trials from which we could benefit the most. The operative word here is “could” benefit the most. And now we are becoming (experiencing) what we have intended for a very long time and G-d through his mercy is allowing it.
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