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Btw, cwald, I’m pretty sure you would LOVE the first session of General Conference so far. Not guaranteeing anything about the rest, but this one so far has been stunning. Back to our regularly scheduled commenting.
Lera wrote:I’ve never been to a pentecostal church but I did watch a documentary about them. Can’t remember the name of it. They seemed like decent people. What it really made me think of though is how Joseph Smith condemned such practices as unnatural and without useful purpose, since they communicated no intelligence (TPJS, pp. 204, 214). He also admonished the saints to not speak in tongues unless someone with the gift of interpretation was present. (History of the Church 5:31) I would say that anything that is given by the power of the Holy Ghost is not counterfeit regardless of whence it comes. I happen to know for a fact that there are people of other faiths that are better(more humble, faithful, giving, etc…) than I am. Being Mormon certainly isn’t going to save me. Only Jesus Christ can do that, and He can do it for anyone who truly humbles themselves and repents.
Ah, but the thing is there’s actually A LOT OF EVIDENCE for this kind of thing in the early LDS.
With Pentecostalism, I’d say it’s not a matter of what you see, it’s what you feel. A documentary can’t convey that. It’s a lot more emotional as a denomination than Mormonism really.
I’ve looked up some stuff.
Brigham Young prayed in tongue (History of the Church, vol 1, page 297) and it was claimed to be the Adamic Language.
There’s also some evidence here –
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/byustudies/id/659 p.s. I always thought we were saved by tithing.
🙂 Nice to meet, Lera. I’ve wondered about that too why our church isn’t being persecuted violently like it was in the old days. My opinion is that is has to do in the ancient times with people having to kill to survive. Having to kill for food, having to Christ’s church, etc. You don’t see so much of that any more with our spoiled modern world. Ilovechrist77 wrote:I’ve wondered about that too why our church isn’t being persecuted violently like it was in the old days.
Well, it is in Africa. And I gather some not very nice things have happened in Russia too.
Lera wrote:…Now I personally do not believe the follow the prophet doctrine. I think it’s straight from hell and keeps people from developing a relationship with Christ.
…If the wrong people knew about my beliefs I would be excommunicated I’m sure! I hope I will be welcome here. I feel like I really have a lot to offer and am humble enough to know I have a lot to learn as well.
I agree. And Jesus never excommunicated anyone. Infact, he was found being friends with those who would’ve been excommunicated.Welcome to the forum, Lera!
I love the implications of the gifts of the spirit. And I wonder if sometimes maybe our current buttoned-down church experience may be preventing some of the more flamboyant manifestations of these gifts. I will never forget when I attended the broadcast of the dedication of the Palmyra Temple. I traveled all over the Salt Lake Valley to find a handkerchief for the hosanna shout. I was familiar with the history of the intense, Pentecostal, outpourings of the spirit that attended the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. I was very much looking forward to a thrilling experience with the hosanna shout.
What actually happened was a very boring, mumbled, flipping around of the handkerchief that deeply disappointed me. Where is our fire? Where is our passion? Where is the fervent outpouring of the Spirit? I want to believe that there is more to being carried away in the spirit than the calm, peacefulness that I feel in the Temple and some church meetings.
On the Joseph thing, by the way,my personal belief is that God was not pleased with the polygamy stuff going on at the end of Joseph’s life… And that he took Joseph out. I have never said or written this to anyone.
:shh: Well, actually it states in the Bible and in the book Jesus The Christ that His church did excommunicate when he was on the earth. Although I don’t agree with every time, the church has excommunicated someone. SamBee wrote:He certainly rebuked a few people. And he more or less disowned Judas before his death anyway.
Yeah, he was very clear when someone “missed the mark.”But I don’t think Jesus disowned Judas. He told Judas, “That thou doest, do quickly” & acknowledged that he would betray Jesus, but he forgave even those like Judas who had a part in killing him. That blows my mind away… how he could be so unconditionally loving. I hope I can be more like that. When someone hurts me, I tend to not want to love them & feel like if I love them & hope the best for them, then I’m letting myself down by supporting someone hurting me. But it helps if I think about it as, whatever I feel toward others, I feel within me. So when I hate others, I hate myself & when I love others, I love myself.
It was impossible for Jesus to excommunicate anyone from any church. He didn’t have the authority within Judaism, and he didn’t create a church of his own. All he could have done would have been to tell someone to stop following him – and he let his teachings be the sifters in that group. He taught (or refused to teach) a lot of things that drove people away who initially followed him, eventually including Judas, imo. Also, for all of the love-focused messages he taught, in many ways he was more radically polarizing than even Pres. Packer in our day. I haven’t heard anything from the GC pulpit as condemnatory as some of the things Jesus said during his ministry – except perhaps for Elder Holland’s talk about those who claim Joseph Smith was an intentional fraud. Think of the reaction that talk caused, and then think of the reaction to many of Jesus’ statements.
I’m NOT comparing Elder Holland and Jesus in saying that. I’m comparing the nature of the statements, saying that Jesus made such statements more often than any of our current global leaders and emphasizing how even Jesus gets caricatured when only his touchy-feely teachings are mentioned.
I like Old-Timer’s comments – that’s important to remember. turinturambar: I remember at the last Temple ded I went to: I was maybe the loudest one there. I was thinking the same thing: come on, let’s SHOUT! Now’s our chance! But phoo, we’re so afraid of even feeling the rhythm of our hymns or sullying the sanctity of the sacrament with the profanities of percussion or anything louder than the organ (good thing we’re not in 19th century Sweden when they thought fiddles were of the devil, eh?) that we can’t cut loose at the one time when we’re allowed – no,
supposed to. I really do hope we get out of the pasty white fear of anything that seems too Pentecostal (or, dare I say it, too black?) in my lifetime.
Old-Timer wrote:It was impossible for Jesus to excommunicate anyone from any church. He didn’t have the authority within Judaism, and he didn’t create a church of his own.
Well, we’re told that sometimes. But what word is used for church in the Gospels? Ekklesia. Which means a gathering, I believe. There certainly was a gathering at some of his sermons.
He definitely seems to have inner and outer circles. He had a group of thirteen confidantes (not twelve, Judas was included), and another ring of disciples (seventy?) around them. There was also an inner circle of women – at least Marys, Martha etc
Quote:“And I say to thee. thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18
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