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Hey Everyone, Someone in my Facebook group shared this amazing article by Max Skousen
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14814631/Who-and-What-Is-The-Holy-Ghost What love to get your thoughts on this article.
John
I like Max Skousen, I think in many ways he was an early StayLDSer. His ideas really break away from the mainstream doctrine yet are deeply rooted in them. In fact it was Max’s ideas that helped me see I could still find value in the church by stepping away from literalism and spending some time contemplating the symbolism in the scriptures, temple, etc. Max seemed like more of a Pantheist/Omnist who embraced his Mormon heritage. He’s the only person I know of to be excommunicated twice. If I’m not mistaken it was because his unorthodox writing attracted a significant amount of followers. I’m curious to see how many on this board know of Max. The idea that each of us is the Holy Ghost certainly isn’t LDS theology but it is an interesting way to say that there is divinity within us. I remember in primary learning about the Godhead and trying to make the pieces fit with the plan of salvation and being puzzled and wondering if the Holy Ghost would ever be born and when, etc. I even asked my grandmother, “What if I am the Holy Ghost?” She was caught of guard but said something like the Holy Ghost would have to be the last spirit to be born, so it couldn’t be me.
:thumbdown: I think the greatest contribution religion can make to man is inspiring him to look inward and discover his own divinity. If the idea that each of us is the Holy Ghost does that for you, then run with it.
I had never heard of Max Skousen before, and there’s some pretty deep outside-the-box stuff in his blog. I’m not sure he’s right, but I don’t know that he’s wrong, either. The Holy Ghost, and the GotHG, are still things I have not come to terms with in my new (or maybe I should call it reconditioned) faith. If nothing else I have been inspired to read the Lectures on Faith again. The Holy Spirit being us is a bit New Agey for my liking, I think HS is beyond us all. I think too many Mormons confuse feeling good with the spirit – quite different.
The Holy Ghost is certainly the worst delineated of the Mormon Godhead. Origins hazy, character hazy, massive overlap/conflation with “the Priesthood” and “Light of Christ”.
Given our advances in technology, I tend to think of the HG now in terms of the universal energy network that allows us to be tapped into the divine, so to speak. I am totally fine with seeing the HG as an actual personage of spirit, but that causes enough interpretive issues (when considered deeply) that I tend to lean toward “the Spirit of God” (with “spirit” meaning “influence” or “spiritual reach” more than “being”).
SamBee wrote:The Holy Spirit being us is a bit New Agey for my liking, I think HS is beyond us all.
I think too many Mormons confuse feeling good with the spirit – quite different.The Holy Ghost is certainly the worst delineated of the Mormon Godhead. Origins hazy, character hazy, massive overlap/conflation with “the Priesthood” and “Light of Christ”.
I agree with all of what you said SamBee, in particular that which is in bold above. For me that’s a real sticking point with the Holy Ghost. Honestly I don’t really care if he/she/it is a personage of spirit or whatever. I might care about the role of the Holy Ghost if were more delineated and clear to me.
DarkJedi wrote:SamBee wrote:The Holy Spirit being us is a bit New Agey for my liking, I think HS is beyond us all.
I think too many Mormons confuse feeling good with the spirit – quite different.The Holy Ghost is certainly the worst delineated of the Mormon Godhead. Origins hazy, character hazy, massive overlap/conflation with “the Priesthood” and “Light of Christ”.
I agree with all of what you said SamBee, in particular that which is in bold above. For me that’s a real sticking point with the Holy Ghost. Honestly I don’t really care if he/she/it is a personage of spirit or whatever. I might care about the role of the Holy Ghost if were more delineated and clear to me.
This has been my field of study the past couple if years for that reason. Given the advancement in technology you can scan the brain and monitor what is going in more and more, this includes when feeling the Holy Ghost.
It won’t be but a decade or 2 before we can catalog the exact brain process and what part of the brain and what chemicals get released to feel the Holy Ghost.
I am actually get to participate in some of this studies sometimes as a volunteer..
I am really excited for these advancements to get to a bigger understanding if how it all works.
This is definitely in our life time possible to complete.
Exciting we are nearly there. Well in our life time.
Also this is the one subject that bothers me the most though. When members try to tell other members what they are feeling or not, including the HG. That’s not within the rights if anyone to tell someone they were inside them at that moment and knew it wasn’t what they said it was.
Ethically wrong. Not our place or anyone’s to judge what another “felt”.
SamBee wrote:I think too many Mormons confuse feeling good with the spirit – quite different.
Forgotten Charity wrote:Also this is the one subject that bothers me the most though. When members try to tell other members what they are feeling or not, including the HG. That’s not within the rights if anyone to tell someone they were inside them at that moment and knew it wasn’t what they said it was.
Ethically wrong. Not our place or anyone’s to judge what another “felt”.
I agree, but the problem is that this is what we are taught. “After reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it, you should get a warm fuzzy feeling, that’s the Holy Ghost telling you it’s true.”
Missionaries are taught to pause the lesson when it seems there has been some sort of emotional reaction, especially if someone is tearing up, and to point out to the investigator that the feeling is the Spirit confirming that the message is true.
DarkJedi wrote:
I might care about the role of the Holy Ghost if were more delineated and clear to me.The only two roles I have ever heard are to testify of truth (through feelings) and to prompt us to do good (through feelings).
So I can understand the confusion.
SamBee, since you brought it up, how would you describe the difference between feeling good and the spirit?
Unknown wrote:
SamBee, since you brought it up, how would you describe the difference between feeling good and the spirit?I’m not SamBee and I won’t presume to answer for him. I do want to address the question, though, because that is the whole problem for me. I
can’tdescribe the difference in feeling. Being that this is in part what led to my faith crisis, it’s a big deal for me. Following what I thought to be inspiration from the Holy Ghost, and just as strong a prompting as I had ever had (I had experienced ones which weren’t as strong), I did something that led to a very bad outcome for me and my family when I didn’t need to do that. This feeling was as strong to me as the first missionary discussion, my baptism, and temple marriage (for example) – very strong and life changing. The latter things were all good, but the other lead to a bad outcome that still haunts me and is very much a part of my daily life 10+ years later. Could I have been deceived? Sure, I’m open to that idea. But if it was so easy to deceive me, how do I know I’m wasn’t deceived on those other occasions? That is my greatest dilemma and the ultimate paradox for me – if I can’t tell when it really is the Holy Ghost and when it is nothing more than emotion (or perhaps even the influence of Satan), how am I to know what is real and what isn’t? I know this isn’t part of the original question, and I apologize if I have done a threadjack. I needed to answer that question, though.
Curtis wrote:Given our advances in technology, I tend to think of the HG now in terms of the universal energy network that allows us to be tapped into the divine, so to speak.
I am totally fine with seeing the HG as an actual personage of spirit, but that causes enough interpretive issues (when considered deeply) that I tend to lean toward “the Spirit of God” (with “spirit” meaning “influence” or “spiritual reach” more than “being”).
I really love what you said here. I also believe that the HG is that universal network that connects us to each other and the divine. I believe it’s what makes us one.
What’s really exciting to me is the idea that the HG is the mind of God. As someone who meditates, it’s exciting to think that as I still my own mind, I’m able to access the creative and powerful mind of the Divine creator of the universe. I think this is the great promise of surrendering our own will, for the will of the Lord. We are able to tap into the mind of God (HG) and experience life through his eyes.
I know that’s new agey, but that’s just how I roll
I’ll write a longer reply when I’m on a computer, but for me the HG is similar to an energy. (Man, that sounds New Agey too!) I find my internal experience hard to describe. I started another thread in the support forum around distinguishing good feelings from the Holy Ghost. SamBee wrote:I’ll write a longer reply when I’m on a computer, but for me the HG is similar to an energy. (Man, that sounds New Agey too!) I find my internal experience hard to describe.
Obi Wan Kenobi: The force is “…an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.” Early comparisons of Star Wars and the church aside, this seems to fit what you guys are talking about is some ways. I’m reading this thread with interest and I’m trying to get my head wrapped around these different ideas instead of that which I have been taught in church (the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he can be in only one place but his influence can be felt everywhere, etc.). I do recognize these things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
DarkJedi wrote:Obi Wan Kenobi: The force is “…an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.” Early comparisons of Star Wars and the church aside, this seems to fit what you guys are talking about is some ways. I’m reading this thread with interest and I’m trying to get my head wrapped around these different ideas instead of that which I have been taught in church (the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he can be in only one place but his influence can be felt everywhere, etc.). I do recognize these things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
I’ll have to go back and watch the Star Wars movies again.
That quote from Obi Wan reminds me of the Sufi saying:
Quote:God sleeps in the stone, dreams in the flower, awakens in the lion, and in man, knows he is awake
I always viewed the Light of Christ as nothing more than the conscience, Jiminy Cricket, but perhaps it is much more than that. Maybe the Light of Christ is that which binds the everything together, including the Godhead. If there really is a patriarchal order of gods that extends to eternity in both directions, it seems that this “force” would be the original intelligence behind it all.
Unknown wrote:DarkJedi wrote:Obi Wan Kenobi: The force is “…an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.” Early comparisons of Star Wars and the church aside, this seems to fit what you guys are talking about is some ways. I’m reading this thread with interest and I’m trying to get my head wrapped around these different ideas instead of that which I have been taught in church (the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he can be in only one place but his influence can be felt everywhere, etc.). I do recognize these things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
I’ll have to go back and watch the Star Wars movies again.
That quote from Obi Wan reminds me of the Sufi saying:
Quote:God sleeps in the stone, dreams in the flower, awakens in the lion, and in man, knows he is awake
I always viewed the Light of Christ as nothing more than the conscience, Jiminy Cricket, but perhaps it is much more than that. Maybe the Light of Christ is that which binds the everything together, including the Godhead. If there really is a patriarchal order of gods that extends to eternity in both directions, it seems that this “force” would be the original intelligence behind it all.
I like the Jiminy Cricket reference
🙂 . The Light of Christ is SO much more than the moral compass we are taught to follow in Church. Section 88 talks about this light in detail. I especially like versus 6-13. The light of Christ is in everything and is the source of all creation. We have access to this light whenever we want it. We just need to discover it.
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