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“Would you leave if you could?” To me it’s the same question as: “if you (roadrunner) were born outside of the church and were given an upbringing with no religious biases, and with a solid secular foundation, would you choose to join the LDS church?” I’ve had undeniable spiritual experiences and the LDS church has made me a better person, but I have a lot of baggage also.
Roadrunner wrote:To me it’s the same question as: “if you (roadrunner) were born outside of the church and were given an upbringing with no religious biases, and with a solid secular foundation, would you choose to join the LDS church?”
I disagree Roadrunner. That would change my answer completely. I do not believe that I would join the church under those conditions and knowing what I know now.
I have previously framed this question the way Roadrunner has, only using amnesia. If you had amnesia and couldn’t remember the people you know, how you were raised, the ties that bind you, would you see something in Mormonism that would make you want to join? For me, I would probably be secular and not follow a religion. But because I have, I wouldn’t leave it. We used to be told that those born in the covenant were more righteous, reserved for the last days, but that actually doesn’t make sense. Wouldn’t those born in the covenant be the ones who would have a hard time seeing the value if they had to find it on their own? I’m just trying to use logic on an argument that was specious to begin with.
I think I would join if I had a clean slate, if I joined any religion, simply because I love the theology so much – but I also think there is a good chance I would be living a lifestyle that would make it hard for me to change enough to convert. So, as with so many other questions, the ultimate answer for me is, “I don’t know.” That certainly played a huge part of my focus as a missionary to try to find people who would respond to the message and not worry about or judge those who didn’t.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I have previously framed this question the way Roadrunner has, only using amnesia. If you had amnesia and couldn’t remember the people you know, how you were raised, the ties that bind you, would you see something in Mormonism that would make you want to join?”
I’m “not sure” in the poll because the answer to this is: probably not.
I wasn’t BIC, so yes, I made that choice. I’m a convert, an unorthodox one admittedly. The joke is that the church constantly tries to be “normal” and regular, and fails. The suits are the symbol of that. The truth is most regular people aren’t interested, because the regular trend is away from religion, even to vicious antireligion. So I think we have a duality between our weird origins and theology, and our “straight” appearance, dress, opinions etc
Old-Timer wrote:[
Admin Note]: Be careful to articulate exactly what you mean in comments like the last one, Cadence. I think I am reading it correctly when I read it as saying staying is the sensible choice, given the family’s attachment to the Church. If I am wrong and it was encouragement to leave since you believe “the Church isn’t true”, knock it off. That’s not consistent with the mission of this site. Again, I don’t think that’s what you meant, but it’s ambiguous enough that it could be read either way.
I just do not believe it is true. Just as simple as that. I think the physical evidence is on my side. Others do not believe as I do and they find truth in the church. I just think we are best following the path that best represents the reality we find ourselves in. That path may change over time as we gain experience and knowledge. But we should not go against our best judgement and the evidence to placate a fear that we have. Not even the church directly teaches to do things out of fear.And no, I would not join if I wasn’t aleady a member. I’m certain of that.
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Quote:I just think we are best following the path that best represents the reality we find ourselves in.
I agree completely with that, Cadence – but this site is focused on helping people stay, not encouraging them to leave. If they decide to leave or have left already, we offer a place to help them let go of bitterness, make a smooth transition and not sever ties unnecessarily, but we don’t encourage anyone to leave who hasn’t made that choice already. You’ve been around long enough to know that.
As I said, I know you well enough from our interaction over the years to think I was right in how I read your comment, but others who participate or merely read without commenting haven’t been around that long and gotten to know you as well as we old-timers have. All I’m saying is to keep that in mind and word comments/posts like this accordingly.
Quote:I think people forget sometimes that their gripes are not peculiarly Mormon. Bad leadership, cliquishness, snobbery, backstabbing, hurtful comments etc are to be found in many, many places….
Amen!
My answer was “not sure.” I’m not sure where I would go. Referring to the “amnesia question” I’m not sure if I would join. I suspect not. But it’s hard to say. Being LDS is a strong part of my personal identity.
Cadence wrote:I just do not believe it is true. Just as simple as that. I think the physical evidence is on my side. Others do not believe as I do and they find truth in the church. I just think we are best following the path that best represents the reality we find ourselves in. That path may change over time as we gain experience and knowledge. But we should not go against our best judgement and the evidence to placate a fear that we have. Not even the church directly teaches to do things out of fear.
Cadence, I agree with you. We should not go against the evidence we see, or do things out of fear.I guess it depends on what you mean leave. I’ve “left” but I haven’t left.
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I voted “no” about a week ago. I’m not sure though. I could still have the theology I like and take it elsewhere. What the Hinkley quote about “bring the best you have and let us add to it.” Today was really, really tough. I feel I could just as well take the universalism I want somewhere else and not have to deal with the vocal orthodox crowd who seem to be gaining influence (or I’m becoming less orthodox and everyone seems to have a different view).
We had a sacrament talk from the primary president which was ultra orthodox nonsense (including some line about “we’re the only ones with the truth and the rest of the world is following Satan. I love to be reminded of that at Christmas time”). She’s setting the tone for my 3 kids every week.
Then the priesthood lesson was a 30 minute monologue about Saint Joseph Smith. At one point said “Joseph was a completely honest man who never hid anything. Other ministers used to call on him to try and catch him in the act of not practicing everything he preached but they never could because he always did. He never failed to live the truths he taught. The first vision was one of the most significant events in history because it taught us that all other churches are not true. Joseph Smith has to be telling the truth otherwise it can’t be his church.”
At this point my head snapped up (from looking for the “I’m not very righteous” quote) fast enough for him to notice. He quickly corrected himself, “It’s not Christ’s church I meant.”
I put my hand up and started speaking (he wasn’t asking for input) and said I wanted to address what he said earlier (I wish I could have deconstructed it piece by piece). I said we had to be careful about the way we referenced the first vision. The specific critiques of the first vision were the creeds of other churches, a written statement of belief that had to be adhered to (no more, no less) and the professors of religion. It did not say no other church is true or has truth. He apologised if he’d misquoted and then continued his praising.
Today, I think I would leave if I could. Still too tied up in it all to just walk away. But feeling pretty crushed.
mackay – I am sorry. A couple weeks ago I had a similar day – The high council topic was a combination of talks – Elder Oaks and Elder Nelsons. I was so prepared for these to be used in class where you can make a comment or voice an opinion, but Sacrament Meeting is a different duck. I was fuming. Relief Society that day was lesson that turned into a how the world is falling and we alone, in our pain must be the beacon. AAAA. Good luck getting better.
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