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I still have a problem with this, why do we have to keep on making allowances for Joseph’s behavior. The mistakes he made are not just regular natural man ‘misdemeanors’. They are huge. lets be honest, he would be in jail if he was alive today! I look at my husband, my brother, my father and my father in law, in fact I can think of 10 other men that I am close to between the ages of 18 and 65 that are all more honorable than Joseph Smith was. I get tired of hearing excuses about him. Ok so maybe he was a prophet despite his crimes. Perhaps Warren Jeff’s is too?

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I think it is important to clarify that if people on the bloggernacle are complaining it is about the the lack of honest history not the quantity of whitewashed history that is spoon fed just about every week at church.

I agree entirely with phaseII. It is extremely difficult having to go to church( and yes this year has been particularly bad) every week and learn about the “HIstory” instead of focusing on the doctrines and principles and ultimately JESUS CHRIST. It DOES make it hard!. This subject has been discussed many times on this forum, I don’t understand why PhaseII’s comments have not resonated with more people.

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phaseIII wrote:

I totally understand how you are feeling, I had almost the exact same conversation with my husband last night, he has the same worries about whether the church might be taking us away from the the true path of christ. My answer to him and to you is that I have faith in Christ, I love Christ that is my focus and if I stay focused on him and my Heavenly Father who I am staring to visualize as the omnipotent spiritual life force, if I have that force as the very central part of all my thought and actions, then everything will be okay and I will be led to truth.

Right now I get peace from staying Lds and I know that he is okay with that. My feelings might change that is okay too.

I understand your concerns about your boys I have 3 children too. Don’t lie to them don’t teach them things you know to be false. Teach them of Christ about faith about the powers of the universe and how they can tap into them to create happiness in their own lives. Teach them the importance of unconditional love for all of the human race, not mormon dogma of rewards based on their adherence to certain rules and requirements. Thats my damage control!

Oh and don’t go to the temple if it scares you listen to your soul.

I REALLY DO empathize with you we are all in this together.

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Listening to the opinion of some Lds grand mason in utah certainly does not make me feel better about the work of masonry in regard to Mormonism. Masonry works like a pyramid I have known people who are regular run of the mill masons that believe it is all good. The Lds master mason quoted although relatively high up will have no idea about the inner workings at the very top of Masonry. Its like asking the cleaner of the white house whether the president of America is honest, How would she ever know? It is this side of masonry that scares me and also that puts me off ever going back to the temple. Once again JS puts me in a position where I an struggling to trust motives!

Also I think it was mwallace that discussed the problem of masons having 2 masters, Don’t you think that sometimes TBM’s get a little close to worshipping prophets the way that the Masons worship their grand masters?

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Hi Utah County,

Totally empathize with where you are. IMO this is a very good place to be. It is open, friendly, not negative and allows freedom of speech, the lack of which can be one of the most frustrating aspects of staying LDS. It is especially hard if you don’t have a close friend or family member who is going through the same thing.

I hope you find this as helpful as I have, there are some very thoughtful intelligent people here that have helped me to see in print a clearer presentation of my own thoughts and feelings.

Others on this thread have suggested you look at Fowlers stages of Faith, I found them very helpful too, acknowledging them actually made me feel as though perhaps I was on a path towards something extremely positive rather than on total self destruct. Give it a look.

I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts!

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I would just like to say that I totally echo the words of mistercurie( if I was that clever) and the sentiments of crazycatwoman regarding Jeffery R Holland’s talk.

I would add that the talk didn’t offend me. What bothered me was that intentionally or not every TBM that was listening that might have had any sympathy or understanding for my position once hearing stuff like that just falls back into believing that we have all been ‘got’ by satan. It perpetuates an incredibly divisive mentality and promotes unchristian behavior. It also plays up to the pride of the Tbm’s who believes they are somehow superior, more blessed,more spiritual or more favored of the Lord because they have the strength to avoid the mist of darkness. To illustrate my point two members of our ward who know of our struggles have emailed the link for the talk. I just see it as a bit of back to square 1.

That said, just to prove how totally screwed up I am there were points in the talk when i really wanted to fall back into that stage three way of thinking and lap it all up but my brain would not allow me. I especially liked the bit where he quoted his grandfather an evil man could not have written something so good and a good man- well I cant actually remember the end bit, but I did like the sentiment! Preferred it to the whole Hyrum story actually.

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Hi Curt,

curt wrote:

Is it possible to remain a believer in the LDS church if the First Vision is a fraud?

Is it possible that you answer your own question in your post?

You mention that Oliver, Lucy Mac and many of the early converts had no knowledge of the first vision as we know it today. In light of this don’t you think it is interesting that they still believed Joseph Smith to be a Prophet. My thoughts are; maybe we put to much emphasis on this. The early saints knew very little of the FV and were valiant to Joseph based on the Vision of Moroni and the translation of the plates. Do we need the FV to make Joseph a prophet? I personally don’t think so.

I think the problem comes when we want to claim the Mormon Church is the only true church, then we need the FV to be pretty clear cut. Joseph Smith being a prophet does not necessarily mean that the church is the only way to truth. Just my thoughts…

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Is it possible that we live our daily lives without asking any real questions to ourselves. Then when we decide to actually get down on our knees and ask our deeper inner selves a question that we get this emotional response. When ever I have had a spiritual feeling I have been distraught desperate for an answer I have supplicated the lord ( or deep within myself) and then the feeling comes. Is it possible that it is like a part of our soul that wants to answer us, to respond to our needs that produces the answer. I like the theory that God is within us that just like our physical children have our DNA within them, we have gods spiritual D.N.A in us. Could it be this D.N.A that answers our prayers??

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Quote:

RebelProperty wrote:

I don’t know how I can keep participating in the church when ‘they’ believe it’s all or nothing, meaning ‘they’ have it 100% correct without exception and everyone else has part of it.. and even worse is trying to lead you astray from the truth we have!

I struggel with this too. The thing that bugs me is that I am treated as guilty. “They” all walk around piously. Its exactly like someone being tried for a crime who cant ever give any evidence in their own favour. It annoys me that these people judge me, but I cant (out of my compassion for them) tell them the truth, yet they judge me with no compassion.

Will this feeling ever go away. Will I ever fully get over the injustice of it all!

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Thank you for your comments,

You are all right I need to just let it go. It is now wednesday and I already feel a bit better, your posts have helped to make me see things in perspective too thanks.

I do know that I can never change other peoples behaviors only my own. My decision to stay lds has been based on the peace I get from staying. Even small annoyances like this don’t make me want to leave.

I was more worried about how my friends would respond to the comments. As strong as I want to be my friends have been so supportive that I would be devastated if the words of a leader led them to feel that i was a bad influence.

I agree that I probably have had the potential to be dangerous but i feel the time for danger has passed I am now looking for the good in the church and have lost desire to spread the news about the bad. Perhaps if the leaders weren’t so threatened by me they would interview me and find me to be not as dangerous as they think.

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I don’t think that anybody in Scotland thinks that if they cant pay tithing they would get any ward welfare to cover other things to enable them to keep up an honest tithe. The welfare system here is extremely tight. My only church friend ever to get ANY welfare was frog marched around Tesco ( our walmart) with the Relief society president in tow. Very few bills are ever paid. The humiliation of getting any help is so great that just about everyone I know would rather miss a months tithing than suffer it. I think the assumptions that the poor can rely on ward welfare if they cant meet the demand of tithing are completely off the mark for Europe. This is just anther example where the world wide church is at odds with the u.s church.

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Hi mustangsally91″

I am so sorry that you feel so hopeless. You need a hug! It is a terrible shame that you are not getting to church where you can be with people that can show you some compassion.

What Is your husband doing to stop you going to church? Is it just the threat of divorce or is he using physical force to stop you from going? Can you get a lift from another member and just have them turn up for you one sunday?

Obviously I don’t know the inns and outs of your situation, but If you are unhappy with your husband could you allow him to carry out his threat of divorce? If HE leaves you, you will initially have somewhere to live without you having to find somewhere to go. You then would be able to attend church and build up a life for yourself. Perhaps once you are in a better place emotionally you could then reconcile with your husband.

My thoughts are with you.

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Godlives wrote:

Quote:

One more point: If I were to work on a film as a cinematographer for let’s say “Braveheart.” Let’s say I filmed the sex scene in this movie. This is one small part of many other scenes in the movie. If I were to tell the bishop I could get “excommunicated.” But if I was making a sculpture of a nude body, would I be treated the same? Please explain the difference to me. Also, does a member get “excommunicated” for watching Braveheart? But the filmmaker could. Just my feelings. I’m certainly not trying to create controversy. I just can’t overcome this with out understanding “why?”

Am I being naive here, would one really be excommunicated for filming a romantic sex scene in a block buster movie like Braveheart ( I seem to remember it being very nice and Romantic) I think it must be a situation where it depends on the area/ bishop/respect for the individual/ the spirit.

Also I don’t agree that a nude sculpture could in any way be seen as crossing the line. I think that any Bishop in Europe that actually felt this way would be so embarrassed about coming across as uncultured that they would never dare say anything. The human body is beautiful in fact the most beautiful of HF creations. Sexuality is a blessing in life, why does the church have to be so uptight. Arrrrgh this is the kind of thing that drives me mad, its so unhealthy and i believe the less we view sexuality in a healthy way the more chance of people becoming screwed up.

There are opposites in all things, think- Leonardo’s naked David a stunningly beautiful piece of work. Could anyone call that inappropriate? I suppose someone might. That to me means that the whole thing has to be personal the line has got to be ones own conscience. what makes you personally feel good. AGAIN I go back to living by the dictates of our own heart. If you feel good about what you are doing in your heart then you should be able to justify this to your bishop in a way that he will understand.

On a slightly different point but still relevant, I am delighted that my 13 year old son has been exposed to nude sculpture his whole life, he has also seen his Dads work in the fashion industry which has at times been photographed on nearly nude models. It does not phase him one bit. Living in Europe he is surrounded by magazines, posters etc showing half clad women/men. I don’t know what the statistics are but I bet The Mormon boys being brought up over here in this environment are less likely to have sexual problems in marriage and turn to pornography. Just a hunch what do I know!

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I don’t know if this adds effectively to the post but recently I have been thinking about the Quote ‘

Quote:

Only after the trial of your faith does the miracle come”

I always interpreted that to mean that we will have trials in our life that might be a struggle and we might even struggle to understand Gods intentions, but after that trial we will be able to look back and see that it was all for a purpose.

However,

I have recently seen a whole new meaning to this statement. I now think of it in more literal terms. I am having a literal trial of my actual faith in Mormonism as a whole! Maybe everyone needs to go through this before some miraculous miracle of enlightenment comes. (I’m still waiting for this but then my faith is still being tried)

Only after the trial of your faith does the miracle come. Just a thought, don’t know if it makes sense to anyone or Im just saying what others see as obvious.

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Oh I am so sorry Godlives,

It is truely a nightmare, I feel so much empathy for you.

A few thoughts,

Quote:

I am by nature an artist with reasonable noteriaty in my previous work. I left my field because I came to the point that my art, what I wanted to create, required my temple recommend.

Can you expand upon this? what sort of Art takes away ones temple recomend? My husband is an artist and at one point did the most beautiful collection of nude sculptures. His work had no impact on his temple reccomend. ( we do live in Europe I know utahans `(if thats where you live) are a bit more annal about that sort of thing). I think its very sad that you feel that you have to sacrifice your career for the church.

Quote:

In other words, the person I love is not capable of being mormon.

What sort of things about being Mormon do you feel incapable of? Are your issues doctrinal or are you feeling ostracised because of Mormon culture and crazy Dogma? I have been encouraged by a lot of people on this site breaking the bonds of ‘expectation” and being free to live the gospel according to the dictates of their own heart. It is possible, people struggle with you at first but then I think they accept the new you. Thats my experience. I think there is something so exhilarating about truly not caring about what they think. The very indoctrinated ones that are making you feel inadequate are actually so brainwashed that its sad.

Quote:

I had a major family health challenge that required family and church financial help. Now I feel financially in debt to support the church for their giving us support. And believe me when I say I was helped “alot.” (more then anyone else I know in the church.)

This is not good that you feel you owe the church something. You don’t owe the church anything! I am absolutely delighted that my tithing or fast offering would help someone like you who was in need. I am totally confident that many many people would be far happier that it went on this than…… well don’t get me started on this!

I want complete “GRACE” and the restored gospel on the earth.

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Why cant you have this? Have you read Steven R Robinson’s Book, Believing Christ? I really loved it, it helped me to understand complete grace in a mormon perspective. It sounds as though you are struggling with the shoe fits syndrome ( only one size in mormonism if it aint your your size scr–ed) It doesn’t sound as though there is anything major that that the church would class as ‘sinning’ that you are struggling with?

I feel like I’m part of “the corporation generation” of mormonism.[/quote]

Its only you that can make the desicion to be one of the non conformists. I think its easier to stay under your own terms than leave all together.

My thoughts are with you, This forum has helped me, I hope it helps you see that people are struggling with similar things, and some have found a way oh happiness without throwing the baby out with the bath water.

One last thing, The ability to create art is a god given blessing, Your talent should be revered. I can’t see a better vocation for someone that has a Lds perspective of our roles in eternity. Good luck

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