Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Thank you for the support. I am pleased I read rough stone rolling, parts of it were long and boring, but it was the first thing I found that was sort of church recognized ( Deseret etc) I felt it was at least trying to be honest and that was what I needed at the time.
Quote:Am I allowed to say, “Fear not. There is more in store”?
Tom you are crazy I love your response. But what secrets are you not telling me?
Quote:I’m one of the woo-woos on the site; I’m wayyy out there in la la land–a humanist mystic.
What is it that makes you way out in la la land? I am excited by the prospect of self discovery after being trapped in a one way of thinking mentality, I want to hear your thoughts. I have been thinking some pretty crazy wayy out stuff myself. Maybe we need to start a thread called, “way out stuff that nobody is allowed to judge too harshly”, just open, unrestrained thoughts about whatever.
Thank you for your comments.
Heber13 wrote:,
Quote:Quote:Can I ask…how old is your child now? Do you find yourself wondering how to raise the child in the church now with the new view you have of things? How have you and your DH decided to handle that?
Yes we are finding the above a struggle. We have a 13 year old deacon, An 11 year old daughter and a six year old daughter. The 13 year old is a bright boy, he totally senses there is something major going on. We have been very secretive, stopping conversations when he comes near, hiding books, you know the sort of thing. It has probably been really awful for him.
I watch him sitting on the stand as Bishops messenger and it tares me up. I want for him what I had as a young girl, that absolute faith but I can not ever bare the thought of him one day thinking that I have been part of the deception. At least I know that my parents were completely oblivious to the problems, so I could never hold them responsible for lying to me.
After listening to Fowlers stages of faith I have found that it has really helped me to make a decision about how I go about teaching my children.
Because of their age they are at a natural stage 2 I can’t rob them of that just because I am a stage 4 wishing to be 5. I need to let them enjoy the mythology that will help to build them a spiritual foundation. I plan to let them do this but still feel morally responsible to highlight the “BIggies” For e.g.,
Anyway thats my thoughts, I probably just sound like a very bad apologist. HELP I don’t have the answers!
Thats why Im here to try to get my head around how to handle this whole paradigm shift as smoothly as I can.
Growing spiritually along the way and finding a way that brings me peace that doesn’t necessarily involve throwing the baby out with the bath water. Thats the plan.
It doesn’t sound like your daughters wish to get married somewhere her grandparents can attend has anything to do with your own issues. Most likely it is just down to her love for her grandparents and a desire for fairness. I think you should see your new position as one of freedom. Unlike most TBM”s who feel a constant concern and anguish that there children will live up to every church expectation, you can relax. You can say with honesty it is your children’s choice. The wonderful thing is you can allow her to develop in her own way.
I feel a huge weight of my shoulders in this regard. I am still teaching my Children 13, 11 and 6 in a basically orthodox fashion, which i think is right for their age after hearing Fowler stages of faith. BUT I am also way more open to discussion and to answer things with a ” I don’t know”. I no longer feel that it would kill me if they didn’t stay members of the church. I want what is right for them and I want to give them a spiritual foundation ( I think Mormonism is extremely effective in this for children and youth) Imo your position is positive, it is so much more healthy for your children and they will thank you for it. See it as a huge weight off your shoulders too.
One more thing,I know this is a bit of a thread jack… In the Uk we all get married at church, big ceremony followed by reception full of nonmembers.
We then ( has to be the same day or else wait one year) drive down to the temple with a small group of temple worthy friends and family to get sealed. It is very down played a nice spiritual end to a great day.
I understand that legally the Uk and EU does not recognize temple marriages as binding so the church has no choice, but they certainly don’t seem to have a big problem with this allowing full on chapel weddings prior to the sealing on the same day. I hear so many people get upset about the situation in the U.S, surely this is one area that the church could change its strict ruling on since it does so in Europe?.
What an interesting question. My husband is a successful artist he was worked across the art disciplines as an artist/ designer and in the fashion industry. I know he he has never felt mentally restricted in his creativity by his Mormon orthodox upbringing, but the restriction he has always felt has been more physical. He has been told in no uncertain terms by local church leaders that he was working in an unsavory industry. That the fashion industry was “satanic”. He has tried not to get down by this but has also at times of TBMness felt unsure and wondered whether he shouldn’t just chuck it all in and get a “proper job” ( he has been told that quite a few times too!)
I think he is feeling at peace with his career as well as himself since becoming a stage 4 mormon. He never felt like he fitted and now he doesn’t care. He is sooo glad that he didn’t listen to some of these men and give up his passion, the thing he loves more than anything( well except me?)
Quote:Just as I would never tell 1topen you were “wrong” to date when 14 and wrong to get married at 19…
You know what Heber I was wrong to marry at 19, but since I did I was darn glad that I dated at 14! If I had my time again I would not have done it. Yes it worked, yes I am still very happily married. BUT it is a fluke that it worked, I have friends who married at 19 they are all divorced now. It has been hard at times. I think its great that you are instilling in your daughters the desire to go to university, study and have some life experience first. It is important that they feel strongly about their own personal need for this, or they might be pulled into the unspoken Mormon expectation of a very early marriage. The point that I was making in my post is that the ‘church’, the For strength of Youth pamphlet and general Mormon dogma is such that girls are generally marrying very young to return missionaries. I was a victim ( Ok a bit strong) of this expectation. You only have to ask the average non married mormon girl of 25 and see how desperate they are to be married!!
I am filled with empathy as I read your thread. Your husband is seeing everything as black and white. But thats normal since thats what the church teaches us to do. He is still trying to mentally work out if you are worthy so that he can define whether you are bad or good. You and I and every person on this thread has been conditioned the exact same way to look at everything as black and white. The mere fact that you are feeling that you have to define the church as true or false shows that you are still seeing things in that perspective that we have all been taught to govern everything by. I am beginning to feel that its actually probably more of a grey area, that ones husbands feeling, opinions, judgments and all things at church are grey also. Just my opinion. I really feel for you. It is soo hard when you have children. When I discovered the problems with the history I was absolutely devastated to say the least. I felt my whole world had fallen apart I did not know who I was, I did not know anything. I went from crying hysterically to just a deep sense of very lonely mourning. I tried to find peace in shouting aloud its not true its a fraud, but I didn’t I just felt more empty. I have slowly calmed down enough to recently ( very much to do with this site) feel a sense of peace. That its ok if its not clear cut, that I want to partake in the good of my faith, that I can accept the shades of grey. My advice would be to look for peace not right or wrong, just a feeling of calmness. You might need to sit in the church for five years in the “grey” as I call it, before you feel the necessity to move on or decide its a good place for you, but thats ok thats not bailing out on your true feelings it is just allowing time to heal a little.
I agree with all the posts regarding your marriage. It is VERY important that you cling to it with all you have.( I am assuming that its a good one!) I have sometimes buried my head in my husbands chest knowing that my love for him was the only real thing in my life that I could be sure of. Dont allow your old paradigms of what constitutes a celestial marriage to shape your view of your relationship.
I Like what John D says about things not being black and white. That with most things there are a shades of gray. I personally feel that this sentiment very much applies to this subject. I was married at 19 and am so glad that I did not abide by the FSOU pamphlet dating age rules. If I had that would have given me only 3 years in my entire life of dating. Oh my gosh, how sad would that have been!!!!
I was pretty socially mature and I started dating at around 14. When I met my husband I was 18 and really felt like I had found someone special based on my experience over the previous few years.( still very naive but extremely lucky that it worked) The church sets up an idealistic situation where the expectation is for a return missionary to marry very soon after their mission at 21. This then puts their potential marriage partners ages somewhere between 17- 21 ( very few marry older girls) So the actual dating years are so few, even less for the boys who are on their missions for 2 of them.
I have a lot of friends whose marriages have failed and feel that part of the problem was that they basically married the first LDS person that they properly dated. And that either one or other became frustrated and felt that they had missed out on their youth by marrying young and having no experience of others or got to truly know there own likes and dislikes.
It kinda goes back to the ice cream analogy( i use this in a completely non sexual way) if you’ve only had vanilla you will only know that thats what you like. If you have had so few years to try how are you ever gonna find out what flavour you like? Worst still if you never find out you may never appreciate that what you have is the best flavor ever but since you didn’t try the others you never truly appreciate it. Does this make sense to any one?
Some really interesting thoughts. When I hear about the constraints in Utah I think I see how much harder it all is than I thought to live there. Thank you Braveheart your words are really inspiring, I love your quote below.
Quote:prepare to stand as a spiritual landmark for others.
I have realized that this can be ones only true calling when you reach the point that many on this forum have.
I know there are amazing members here and I love them for their dedication. They give all, for virtually nothing back ( in this life anyway)
Thanks all, for making me see that I do have it good here and that its as easy to stay LDS in Utah as it is in any other part of the world, Its just a choice. I suppose there is good everywhere we just have to look hard to see it.
Obviously Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ can achieve all things at all times, but as human beings Im not so sure. My personal experience has been that it is VERY difficult. I don’t Know that I believe one can be both consciously seeking for personal perfection and give real love at the same time.
On a day to day level I am very surprised that my relationships with my family members and friends have moved to a much deeper more loving place since my church paradigm has shifted. I know now that when I was busy serving being TBM that I was self serving all the time ( although I absolutely did not think it at the time). I was working towards perfection so hard in my life that my goal was self related, even if I was giving service the goal was still self. You have to drop the goal in order to truly transcend to a higher place.
I am beginning to see that when you realize that your ability to love is all that you can be absolutely sure of that everything changes. I am shocked at the difference in my relationships with my nieces and nephews for eg, I think that I was holding back from them because i subconsciously felt that there was a competition between them and my own children which was heavily fueled by church “power points”. Now my own need for that that has gone my real love for them has come so strongly.
Perhaps it is only when you have become perfected in your ability to lose sight of your own self/immediate family etc, that you can then achieve both love and perfection at the same time. But it is a product of your behavior not a motivating factor for that behavior.
Thank you so much for the input this is is so good for me. I hope i didn’t come across like it was awful here I just wanted to see other perspectives. I know the grass is always greener. We do have some amazing friends here at church and family. My husbands entire family are 3rd generation Mormons( almost unheard of here as the saints were still emigrating to utah 40 years ago!) I don’t know if I have attached the quote below correctly but I thought it was interesting.
Quote:“Ideology tends to be less important when there isn’t a glut of available people”.
I think much of the ideology that was in the Church of Scotland (very orthodox christianity prolific throughout scotland until fairly recently) has been passed over to the older members, so we still have so much of that today which is probably what makes it hard. Its crazy, there are so few able members but the leaders still insist on running every program to the letter, all callings being filled, 100% of everything. I was recently released from being the stake primary president and at stake council the presidency were complaining about their recent trip to utah where “things were starting late and that things were generally a bit sloppy out there”, I thought it was so funny. It seems we are a model of great practice up here in scotland. Great for the zealots a little frustrating for me.
I don’t know if its just hearsay but I have heard that C Todd Christoferson (sp?) has a gay son. If that is true I think it could have a tremendous impact on the way gays are treated. I can’t see gays being accepted in the near future( maybe 20 years) but I can certainly see a climate of less fear and more compassion and love in the future.
