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mom3, thank you for starting this thread. I realize I have loaned out my copy of Sanctuary and there is a quote I wanted to review in there. Have to track down who has my book! Old-Timer wrote:However, I try always to set whatever limits on my giving I feel are necessary for my own well-being and that of my family. I make the applicable temple covenant willingly, but I do so with the internal understanding that even that covenant is subject to limits relative to my family. Ultimately, I am responsible for the results of my actions, so I weigh the likely results as well as I can and make my decisions as an “agent unto myself”. It’s in our scriptures and theology – and just seems like common sense to me, so I feel fine doing it.
Very much agree. There can be unhealthy people in and out of the church and those unhealthy people in leadership can definitely influence and deeply impact others. I have very firmly set boundaries in one calling in particular in the past. I was a counselor to a woman serving as president who was very passive-aggressive and manipulative in getting her own way. She did not have respect for others’ schedules. She was a stay at home mother who wanted a long (2-3 hour meeting) in the middle of a weekday every week with 2 members of her presidency having full time jobs. When we set our limits, she manipulated the bishop’s request to spend x amount of time (when the rescue effort was just getting underway) to send out an email detailing a schedule that neither I or the other person could begin to meet. The other person and I were doing very well at our callings, by the way, and meeting the needs of those we were serving. I made the mistake of calling the bishop’s counselor (should have made an appointment and spoken to the bishop myself when I was calmer). Very quick release and she called stay at home mothers to replace us. She also called an older stay at home mother to serve in an assistance position. Imagine her surprise when this person was very busy with her volunteer schedule and other things involving her family and would not participate in those long weekly middle of the day meetings either. This older mother told me the weekly meetings were really about playdates for their children.Her child was a teen. I am sure the men never realized any of this was going on behind the scenes and I think they thought poorly of me for being so uncooperative about the time involvement. This was the final straw for me when this happened as it had been happening since the very beginning of the calling. I could go on and on with examples, but some people are sharks whether they realize what they are doing or not. I did not need her appreciation or thank you’s. I loved serving those I was serving in this calling. But I was not going to allow myself to keep going through these ridiculous situations with her. I set my boundaries, fully realizing the release would be coming. However, I made it clear I was not asking to be released, but could not arrange my time in the manner she requested.
Quote:Our Father in Heaven does not want obedient slaves, anxious dependents,unthinking servants, loyal but incompetent children. He wants to give us all that he has. He wants to make us co-heirs with Christ. He wants us to become creators and peoplers of our own worlds, just as he is. In a word, he does not want inferiors. He wants partners. It behooves us, then, as disciples of Christ, to remove the obstacles in our own thinking and in our own traditions that may make it possible for us to look at any other brother or sister in the gospel and to think unkindly or demeaningly or uncharitably of them. Rather, let us say with Nephi and Jacob, ‘The one being is as precious in his sight as the other’. Jacob 2:21
-Chieko Okazaki, Disciples, p.53
Quote:I’m not saying that we should deny our pain or pretend that things are rosy when they’re not. We don’t make things better by wearing masks. I’m just saying that we usually have a choice about our attitudes, and the biggest difference we can make is in where we choose to focus when something is hurting us.
-Chieko Okazaki, Disciples, p.4
Quote:There are times for all of us when we do not understand what is happening or why it is happening or what we are supposed to learn from it. Peace seems very far away. This is the time to be completely honest with the Lord in your prayers and trust completely in him.
-Chieko Okazaki, Being Enough, p.191
Thank you Nibbler and Ray for responding. I do believe Elder Ballard meant well. It is too bad though that LDS members felt compelled to use the older quotes included in his talk to address suicides after Robin Williams’ death. They obviously missed Elder Ballard’s intent. Those quotes were definitely not helpful to our family at the time. We have since gone back over the talk and picked out exactly which parts were helpful and which parts would have been better left unsaid. I will be thankful for the day when there is more research on this and suicide will not be framed in terms of sin, but instead in terms of body failure, just like we don’t call dying from a heart attack a sin. I totally understand that we don’t wish for the option of suicide to be out there.
I definitely don’t want that either.But trying to term it a sin is not helpful and does nothing to really help someone in the midst of their brain failing. Fear/stigma/shame actually contribute to the lack of obtaining help. I do not feel it is a sin. I feel it is a failure of the functioning of the body. I continue to lurk more than I post, but I am always thinking as I read posts. I have to come out of lurking to thank all of you for this post. This topic is very close and personal to me as we lost an immediate family member to suicide in the past year. We are still trying to recover and are starting to realize we won’t recover fully, that we will spend the rest of our lives dealing with the what if’s and trying to figure out how we could have changed the scenario. Our family member’s suicide was precipitated by brain physiology. When the brain (your control center) fails physiologically, you are in big trouble. Even if our family member had been saved from the suicide, we do not know what the long term outcome and quality of life would have been. Nibbler, thank you for posting the link to the 1987 talk by Elder Ballard. At some point, whenever I had energy again, I wanted to discuss that here. RagDollSally, I understand your reaction. This article was given to us right after the event. I appreciate what Elder Ballard was trying to accomplish with his own personal experiences. I do not, however, understand why he brought to life the older quotes regarding self-murder, criminal act, etc. Those were so painful to read in the midst of our shock!!! No one should ever be given this talk to read when this occurs in their family for this reason. I cannot tell you how many people sent us links to this talk, gave us printed out copies of this talk and the loss of Robin Williams just brought it all up again.
There was an abundance of the peace that surpasseth understanding at the time of our loss. This marred it, but I threw the first copy given to us away so that other family members would not read it and somehow blocked it out of my mind. When it was posted again recently on social media, I had a tremendous surge of feeling a need to correct this thinking. I believe no one is in their right mind when they complete suicide. Their natural instinct to preserve their own life is extinguished before they can do this. I believe suicide bombers have to be mentally ill too, or so worried about threats to their loved ones, they are driven to try to save them.
I have had a debate with LDS friends, who want to cling to those old quotes as revelation. Ray, we live in a very conservative area. We have too many who missed Elder Ballard’s points as they read those old quotes. Other than the incident of this talk and one other disturbing situation, the LDS community, as well as friends of other faiths, warmed our hearts as they showed their distress at our distress. That absolutely carried us. We truly felt many were very much mourning with us. They served us, without waiting for assignments to come. Some were assigned, we are aware of that, but the majority just responded and came running.
The other incident, which I cannot write about yet, is still troubling me. I have to forgive, but since it caused extreme hurt to one of my family members at a time such as this, I am still working on forgiveness. I could write an entire book. All leadership would be well served to truly be educated on this topic, so that those who are grieving are not subjected to the biases, prejudices and ignorance at such a time. Fortunately, this priesthood leader only affected one family member. He reminded me of the parable of the Good Samaritan where the priest is so busy with his priestly duties that he crossed to the other side of the road and ignored the injured man. Other priesthood leaders for other family members were much more responsive.
I am trying to have hope. Local members ugly attitudes have not helped me to have hope. I have seen too many situations which leave me asking myself, “Where is Christ in this?” I see and agree with the points all 3 of you are making. I have other situations in life that are draining me and taking tremendous emotional energy. I so wish I could feel the church is a safe harbor that I can depend on for rest and strengthening. I do look to Christ for that, but I don’t feel “safe” in Church like I once did, for many reasons that evolved over the years. There is so much good in the Church. I see it, I really do and I love it. But it’s just like in your own family circles, you see the good, the bad and the ugly. I was unfortunately exposed to the bad and ugly on a very personal level due to local personalities and priesthood roulette. I have actually been praying for more charity for the church as a whole in my heart. It’s interesting you posted this, Ray. Maybe it is more for me than for anyone else. I was excited when I heard Elder Oaks talk. Especially since as a stake RS president many years ago, I was explicitly told I had no authority as I was being trained. I am sure I was not the only one in that position to be told the same thing over the years. What Elder Oaks said is new even though some think it wasn’t. I want to know who the 90% of LDS women are and how the pollmakers were able to contact them. I am sorry, but I am very suspicious of these polls since not one LDS woman I know, locally or in other states has ever been included in these polls. Who is providing contact information for these women? And I believe the way the questions was phrased would be very important too. Many of my nonLDS friends and acquaintances have been following this. I received an invitation to come to someone’s Episcopalian Church. Wornoutsneakers, I just went and read your introduction and realize you are still a fairly new convert. The sisters in your ward may very well not want to upset you with women’s issues. And many sisters wait for someone of like mind to bring issues up first. I bit my tongue for many years during my faith crisis because I did not want to be responsible for weakening anyone’s testimony. Thank goodness I found StayLDS which definitely helped pull me through that period.
