[Alex]

I am a manly man, and even though I have many doubts about the gospel… for some reason I often get teared up when I am bearing a testimony, giving a talk, or talking about spiritual things. I don’t do it for effect and I wish I didn’t. But I feel some strong emotions at these times. It’s not because I feel like it’s the spirit overwhelming me–I feel more like it’s just pure human emotion.

[Alex]

Joni, your post was incredibly entertaining! Also true, insightful, and funny 😆

I think you answered your thread question (“What…?”) with the observations. For me, you seemed to describe it well. My daughter did it several years ago and had a horrible experience–largely because she wasn’t prepared for the heat and she has a restricted diet, so it was a challenge. The photos taken of her and the others are evidence it wasn’t very fun.

Did she learn any valuable experiences and does she look back on it fondly? I don’t know, I have to ask her.

Positive thought: I think we have enough challenges in this day and age, but maybe the perspective of the different challenges other LDS had during their time is a good experience. I don’t know.

I think what I don’t like is the pressure to participate. Go if you want, but don’t go if you aren’t interested. It was sort of like that when I was 14…I had no interest in week-long Scouting camp outs and hikes. I despised it. But I felt incredible pressure to go and most often did (I never enjoyed it.) I like working long hours outside in the heat and sun so I’m no girly man, but there’s a pay off for me in what I accomplish and it holds interest for me. A pioneer trek along a highway watching the cars go by doesn’t.

[Alex]

I see the question as, “If I could go back in time would I serve a mission again?” In that regard, I would. I learned to work long hours, to speak Spanish, and have a lot of great memories of people I met. Also how to live on very little money. I’m separated from my wife now and living in a small apartment (used to live in a big, new home) and while I have plenty of resources to live, I’m back to being frugal and cooking for myself. It actually brings back some good memories 🙂

When I arrived in the mission field, it was Texas and the first day I was asked if I spoke Spanish. I have a Spanish surname but didn’t speak it at all. No MTC training–I was out in 2.5 weeks. President asked, “Did you take Spanish in high school?” Nope. “Would you like to learn Spanish?” Well, of course, who wouldn’t. I was handed a set of scriptures in Spanish and “Spanish for Missionaries” and sent on my way :shifty:

I had to learn Spanish on my own. And in Texas, too. It was frustrating at times and difficult, but I did it. And I have used it a lot. In addition to my regular job, I get paid to travel to a Spanish-speaking country every couple months for consulting work. I wouldn’t have these opportunities or a strong work ethic if I didn’t serve a mission.

The “rest of the story” occasionally hits me very hard. I was moved to Spanish-speaking elder on my first day because another missionary had to go home a month early–his father was dying and didn’t have long to live. Out of a horrible, tragic experience I wouldn’t wish on anyone came a blessing.

[Alex]

I like the comments so far. I’m thinking that maybe “you are a choice/chosen generation” might be a little like the notion that wherever a person is called for their mission will be “the best” mission at that time. I couldn’t have imagined going to any other mission after the experiences I had, I just wouldn’t trade them (the good or the bad.)

So maybe each of these recent generations of youth were special for their time….or their time was special for them.

Alex

[Alex]

I remembered Pres Utchdorf giving a talk about pride a few years ago….I found it and some good quotes:

“I believe there is a difference between being proud of certain things and being prideful. I am proud of many things. I am proud of my wife. I am proud of our children and grandchildren.”

and

“At its core, pride is a sin of comparison, for though it usually begins with ‘Look how wonderful I am and what great things I have done,’ it always seems to end with ‘Therefore, I am better than you.’ “

I remember being glad he could say “the word” in general conference…since it’s been taboo for so long. I think we just have to reconcile for ourselves if we are genuinely pleased with our own accomplishments, or if we are elevating ourselves above others in a way that diminishes what they have achieved or who they are. I have no problem being proud of things, people, or myself. Maybe keep it in check, though.

[Alex]

I believe it’s something in between….that there is a literal “devil” and his evil spirits, and at times seek to influence us to do evil. But I also think we’re our own worst enemy in this life and made decisions–independent of their attempts to influence–to do things that aren’t right.

In the same way, I believe that people are capiable of doing good things on their own.

[Alex]

I appreciate the kind remarks from everyone. I thought it was something worth sharing and that might be uplifting.

I’m not the kind of person that wants visits or help from anyone; I enjoy giving service myself, but I generally want to be left alone (odd, maybe.) But this visit was something I suppose that I needed. There was no talk of “How is your faith?” or ‘we’re going to try to fix you’…it was just “We want you to know we care” and it wasn’t overwhelming. It came from the right people with the right intentions.

One more thing I remembered that was meaningful: Before the GA left, he remarked that it’s the atonement which should always be our focus and the salve for our dispair and challenges. Think of the many discussions we have on this board reflecting on our desire that this would have greater emphasis on Sundays, in aspects of our service and lives! It was reassuring to hear him say this.

[Alex]

I really like the quote from FC that I’ll rephrase here: “Worth should not be based on condition (obedience and full compliance through the rules interpreted.)”

I have no doubt that there is a God who loves us and does so without condition. I believe that there are certain expectations He has for us, but it comes down this one: We do what we can with what we have. I don’t want to try to meet others’ expecations, only His and I believe he understands our challenges. We do the best we can.

[Alex]

Something will give, you are right, but if you can hang in there it may be you find a better level of peace and happiness. I hope you can.

I agree, seeing a counselor or psychologist is an important activity that can help. Having a non-judgmental person to talk to that can offer (in my experience) sparing but enlightening ideas for you to consider does wonders. You have many concerns and questions, but my recommendation is to avoid burdening your wife with these–it will only serve to deepen any issues. She may listen and be silent, but if it’s negative things you are saying (or perceived by her as negative) then it could be harmful without you knowing.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel. So many members, many on this board and myself included, have reconciled a number of issues with the Church that allow us to accept some things, not worry about other things, and continue in a measured way to investigate the things in between. You can find happiness in the gospel as I think you want, but it takes a little time, patience, and reconsideration of what you think you already know.

When if comes to callings, remember that you have a voice with regard to accepting these. If you don’t feel good about it, then it is just a valid as the bishopric’s positive feelings about it. They are understanding if you simply say (and if it’s true), “I have contemplated in my mind the calling you have extended and then prayed about it. I just don’t feel inspired that I should accept it. I hope you can understand that.” You don’t need to give any other reason, whether doubts that you were selected because nobody else was available or that you don’t believe in their inspiration. And I don’t think anyone will question it.

You can’t go back to the past, and I would go as far to say it’s not useful to try to figure out “why” something did or didn’t happen. There are too many forces at work in life that affect outcomes. But you can move forward and do your best to influence what happens next. But again, patiently and with perhaps a different outlook.

Hang in there and stick with this forum. Lots of good people here and faith-building experiences, advice, and examples that can be helpful.

[Alex]

I really liked the blog entry, Hawkgrrrl. Lots of good parallels there to FC and Gladwell’s take on how close (or far) something hits us. I especially like the assessment of those who have “optimism” and those who have “empathy” based on life experiences….makes me consider how I’ve responded to certain things differently than other people’s responses. And how that, in turn, caused a serious rift between us. Thanks.

Again, it was a great read and thoughtfully written.

[Alex]

Cate: I really like your story, it cheered me up!

Nibbler: I agree, getting beyond the “guilt” has helped me…but apparently it hit my wife and didn’t help our marriage.

Others, thanks for your words of encouragement and love.

I’ll admit, within 24 hours I regretted filing the petition. I walked across the street to the courthouse, no lines no waiting, and was done in about 10 minutes. I told my wife I regretted it….but after being so patient and understanding, it hit me that she’s done with the marriage and I was just angry. My fault. I have a dominant personality, but because I supervise lots of people and deal with college student complaints regularly, I’ve developed a patience with people and things (and actually it’s not an act–I can really be patient.) I just figured, “enough.”

It’s easy enough to file a motion to withdraw the petition. But my wife said, “Well, you’ve sealed our divorce by doing this.” Not really, it’s just notice to the court of intent to divorce…..and so what does saying a dozen times angrily to my face “I want a divorce” mean? :wtf: Yes, I told her that, as nicely as I could.

I told her yesterday about a drug I could get prescribed…it’s a pill you take once a day and if you drink any alcohol, you get violently ill. That might give her peace of mind when I travel that I’m not drinking. The truth is that it’s just not that important to me if it means I’ll lose my wife…I’m not addicted to alcohol–a month ago I stopped any occasional drinking and had no withdrawals, no cravings, nothing. Right now I have no desire to drink. So I could give it up if bothers her that much, plus added insurance that I’d projectile vomit if I drank a beer

I shared information with her last night…then this morning asked her if this was a solution to her fears and concerns. She said it didn’t sound like a solution. I’m at a loss.

I’ve been reading a lot of things by Paulo Coelho…interesting perspectives about how change is good for us and even the most challenging periods we endure end up being for our good, the things we look back on and are grateful for. Kind of like the scripture in D&C 122 about “all these things shall give thee experience and shall be for thy good.” And I remember reading a section of “Stumbling on Happiness” (by Daniel Gilbert) that said,

“Find a large number of people who’ve been left standing at the altar and ask them if that was the worst day, or the best day, of their lives. On the day it happens, almost without exception, they will say it is the worst day. But ask these same people the same question a year later and most will say it was the best day of their lives.”

That stuck with me and maybe I’ll look back and see that this was a good thing. Time will tell.

[Alex]

Several of you have been supportive and, in another thread, expressed condolences regarding my marital situation. I’d like to share a quick update. I know this is not a marriage forum, but it’s still part of my crisis and something I’m dealing with.

On Saturday I had another talk with my wife. Most of the same things she has been saying to me for weeks, as well as her visible anger and contempt for me: she repeated that she wanted a divorce, that it’s too late to try to save the marriage, that I’ve been stupid/blind about how much I’ve hurt her. But she added that she does not love me anymore.

Throughout the last couple months I’ve been understanding, kind, and didn’t respond in anyway other than to tell her I love her and I wanted us to stay married. I have told her that she means more to me than anything…and I’d do everything I could to never hurt her again.

On Sunday she visits with the Bishop. She comes home and wants to talk to me…. she holds my hand, is a completely different person–more like she has been our whole marriage–and begins to apologize. I tell her I’m not sure I want to hear what’s coming, if it means she is just going to get my spirits up and then dump me again. She gives me a kiss and tells me that she was probably just trying to get back at me, that she does love me and doesn’t want to think of the prospect of living without me. She wants to try to save the marriage and doesn’t believe it’s too late.

Suddenly, when I was resigned to everything being lost—everything that’s important to me—she tells me that we don’t have to give up. It’s like we are in love all over again. She asks me to stay home with her on Monday, which I do.

And then in the afternoon on Monday she is feeling sick, like she has the stomach flu….then nearly incapacitated. Probably because she has dropped about 30 pounds from not eating, is dehydrated, etc. But it’s more than that. The next morning she tells me she just doesn’t know if she can trust me and is fearful of the future. She sees a doctor that day and gets depression medication (on top of her anxiety medication) and is withdrawn from me.

After a couple days she is more active and we talk. She doesn’t think she can trust me again….she’s worried I’m going to hurt her again by breaking the Word of Wisdom. And she isn’t sure that she loves me. But all those beautiful things she said to me on Sunday….she reasons that she probably just felt guilty after talking to you and needed to try to make it work.

(Why is “guilt” such a prevalent element in our church? It’s what I dislike the most. Forgiveness and the Atonement are what I like best and wish we heard more of.)

Over the past couple months I have apologized and begged her to try to save the marriage; I have promised to put her first in all things; I have told her that doubts about the gospel are meaningless compared to losing her and my family; I have reminded her of the kind of father and husband I’ve been; I’ve told her that I could excuse anything she’s said to me up to this point. And I’ve only asked in return that she love me and forgive my mistakes.

But clearly she can’t. She hasn’t been wearing her wedding ring for a couple weeks; she doesn’t sleep in our bed anymore; she can’t forgive me and says she doubts that she loves me. She has been terribly mean to me for weeks—I’ve endured being called names, accused of all manner of things, and told repeatedly that she wanted a divorce and she would never change her mind.

I have finally told her yesterday that she has hurt me, completely. She has been dishonest emotionally with me, she has separated herself from our marriage by repeatedly asking for a divorce, not wearing her wedding ring, and telling me she doesn’t love me. I don’t deserve those things, but I really didn’t deserve what she did to me on Sunday. For the hurt she says I’ve caused her, it never involved explicitly hurtful words and anger like she’s shown toward me. I don’t want her staying in this marriage out of guilt, nor do I deserve to be given hope one minute and then the next moment be treated like I’m not worth forgiving or trusting again.

Yesterday I filed a petition for divorce. Until now I didn’t want a divorce, but it’s clear there’s nothing left for her in the marriage. Now I don’t feel like there’s anything left in it for me. Over the last month she took what looked like a sense of glee or self-righteousness in saying, “You can make choices, but you can’t choose the consequences” with regard to divorce. I don’t think she expected I would file for divorce, but I also take no happiness in it. I’m simply sad.

[Alex]

conflicted testimony wrote:

Alex, I hope I don’t offend you with what I am about to post. I thought I would share my issue with my husband and maybe shed some light on how your wife could be feeling. This will be hard for me as I am waiting until after Christmas/New Year to take action and leave the marriage.

Not offended at all, thanks for sharing. I’d say your situation and feelings sound nearly identical to my wife’s. It’s amazingly similar.

There has been disappointment for her, certainly, but as you point out there are a lot of imagined disappointments as well. You said, “I simply don’t believe him about anything anymore” and that’s the case here…my dishonestly has been limited to WoW but my wife says the same thing. It hurts and I know I am to blame.

I bought her flowers last night. Of course they had to be plastic (but realistic) flowers due to the season. She wasn’t impressed and all she could say was that I should have done that a long time ago. After another series of mean-spirited remarks to me last night, I said that I know it’s over and don’t wish to be humiliated anymore. There was suddenly a whole new tone between us; I asked last night and so today we’ll discuss budgets, sale of the home, me moving out, etc. I’ll file the intent to divorce with the court later this week. It’s sad but there’s no other answer except we both need to dissolve the marriage.

[Alex]

Thanks for the kind words, everyone. A short update if permitted:

My wife would say that it’s “her standard” and I must respect that. She didn’t marry someone who broke the WoW, which I didn’t for almost 12 years; she also didn’t expect to go through a cycle of finding out, being disappointed, and me promising to never drink again.

I’ve been to counseling and it helped a great deal. Now I’m prepared to do what is necessary to save my marriage; however, even a commitment to keep the WoW accompanied by counseling, a rehab program, AA—anything I can do—doesn’t resonate with her. She just doubts my commitment too much and doesn’t want to be hurt again.

I ask her if this one flaw is enough to end a marriage. Apparently it has hurt her enough that the answer is “yes.” She told my oldest daughter what is going on, who said “I’m ashamed you are my father” and “I would divorce you, too.” It was shock to hear that. My parents contemplated it when I was a teenager and told us kids, but didn’t share the details. So I’m a little hurt with what my wife did. It’s as though no other good I’ve done as a father, husband, and person is evident. I really am a good person—a professional with a six-figure salary, respected, and kind to others. And with enough self-esteem to know that I am more than one flaw.

And I love my wife enough that if she will be happier not being married to me because of constant doubt and worry, I want her to have that opportunity. It’s keeping me sane and happy knowing that I can hold no anger toward her. We have been married a couple decades but are both youthful, attractive. I don’t know exactly what that means except to say I doubt, if either one chooses, we will be alone in the future.

I made a serious error sharing all of my doubts with her. I resisted sharing at first and it caused her more worry wondering “what” was going on in my head. So I shared too much…as well as distancing myself too much as I tried to sort out my doubts. I think that I’m figuring out things now, but it seems too late.

This post is about a little more than the WoW but I wanted to share.

[Alex]

This thread may be about to take a turn because of what I’m about to say…I hope not, but it’s relevant to the topic and recent comments. Feel free to move on and keep things on topic regarding the question asked by the OP.

A couple days ago my wife asked me for a divorce. Yes, it was on Christmas Day. The biggest reason is that I’ve had difficulty keeping the WoW.

Over the years I’ve made the choice to consume beer, usually on a business trip but sometimes privately at home. Ultimately my wife asked me or discovered discarded cans and I told her the truth–I felt ashamed, sad, and like a terrible person. I wasn’t honest with her when I slipped back and I was breaking the WoW commandment. I could go many months, then the opportunity to have a beer would come and I’d make the choice to have a few.

A few months ago admitted to her that I had consumed beer. She was upset. But trying to be more honest, I admitted that I could never say I wouldn’t drink again….and that I almost certainly would. She said she just wanted honesty and she could live with that. I even brought home a six pack and drank a couple in front of her.

About this time I also discovered the history of the WoW–it’s enforcement, as a policy, and changes over time. It’s been well documented on this forum so I won’t rehash it. I became angry that I had felt so ashamed and it had put a strain on our marriage…the only thing I have been dishonest with her about. Other things (like service in the bishopric) challenged my faith and I’ve been in a classic crisis ever since.

During that time I’ve distanced myself from her emotionally. I’ve been coming back, slowly, but she’s had enough. I’ve apologized and want to stay married, but I also know that I feel liberated by my honesty with her and don’t want to make promises that I can’t keep or believe in. What I didn’t realize was that she was distraught.

There’s always more to the story than we can put down in words here; and this posting it’s coming from my perspective, not hers. But the significance of recounting this is that the WoW plays a central role in the ending of my marriage. I know that I could–or could have, as it may be too late now–completely repent, get counseling, etc….I have a role in this. I play a part. But she feels, perhaps correctly, that I’m untrustworthy and put her through mental anguish these last few months to the point that there’s no going back. I see it as a faith crisis and unwillingness to be dishonest again, while she sees it as the last straw.

There has got to be some good that comes from this. “All experience is for our good,” as we’ve heard. I know that I’m more than just someone who breaks the WoW–I’ve otherwise been a good husband, father, provider, and neighbor. But that is what’s defining me in the eyes of my wife.

That’s all. I’ll be fine and life will go on. Thanks for letting me share bit of sadness, it’s therapeutic at this moment for me.

[Author]

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