[Alexia]

Swimordie wrote ” I’m tempted to go into some dangerous waters here”

Hey Swim and Die, go for the danger!?!

” So, why shouldn’t I be the one who makes the rules?” Well I’m not sure I trust you as much as I trust Christ, but I think I know what you mean. Obviously, you cannot be a rule maker without hurting someone. Just think of parenthood. Ouch!

And I have seen parents make terrible choices in the name of love. Eg. I don’t want my kid to stay in the hospital because he is scared, I don’t want him to have injections/vaccinations because they hurt. Somewhere knowledge and wisdom must appear, in order to do love right (don’t over react on the “right way” issue).

I have broken a lot of rules in my life, and still break sub-cultural rules for fun. I would have never gotten out of severe poverty of my childhood if I had not broken rules of the game ( not referring to broken laws). (But dang it, I am back where I started.) I still love the concept of the “irreverent” wild card and God loves you.

Lady Wisdom, I appreciate your encouragement. I feel hope and that is a start. It is hard to explain why the gift (of Holy Ghost) is so important to me.

As far as faith fighting, I do not see the value in it. I admire people that believe in something!

Re: Christian faiths, I have been on both ends of the LDS and Non-LDS sides. I have experienced love and the spirit in many churches, but the spirit at an unexplainable level came through the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. Interestingly, I felt some unexpected judgment from my Baptist and Presbyterian and Catholic friends in that all of a sudden I was not as good, my love for Christ was not as valued and my faith and belief in the Holy Ghost was criticized once I attended this Church. Many made fun of(disagreement is fine by me) the temple and other beliefs, similar to the mockery you can see on you tube etc.

I guess I was fortunate to not see that much judgment among the LDS toward other Christians, and when I do see it, I call them on it.

I understand the temple situation can be frustrating. But I also understand the concept of a place for “of one mind”, a place of quiet, peace, serenity, and similar spirit for a purpose. I also had problems with it earlier in my life, being only member, but later had scenarios unfold before me in which I saw roommates and others enter the temple and it back fired because of their own negative thoughts (different than questioning). ( I can tell I need to stop trying to cram this idea into the thread).

I never feel that God loves one less than another, but the scriptures do show Christ’s displeasure and expectation of certain behaviors. Simple fact there is discipline in the universe, yet in such variety. I seldom feel guilty, I just stop at the warning sign and follow the directions, of stop, detour, caution, etc. Guilt was never meant to be (IMO) a place to live to feel inferior even if others contribute to you feeling that way. But sometimes guilt unheeded does have interesting results.

Now more than ever, I appreciate the spiritual pain that others may be feeling. I hope that God lives, and I hope that the universe flows toward peace between us all and there will be no room for spiritual death. When I do get the Holy Spirit back into motion, I pray that it will never fail me to the point that I cannot help others to see His light. Funny words from the blind.

Alexia

“Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you.” Sayings like this, and others found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and other beautiful pieces of wisdom in the world are comforting.

Heber wrote ” That (silence from God sometimes means do it yourself)was one of the hardest things for me to accept…when I didn’t feel directed by the spirit on what to do specifically (my expectation), I never realized the Lord knew I could do it on my own. I just didn’t know that. I think that was the hardest part of my lesson…definitely the hardest part was feeling alone when I didn’t want to be. You said it very well! and I think its an important lesson for us at times.”

Meanwhile, I am tired of doing it on my own, yet in the same breath, my greatest virtues came from being forced to do it on my own. Until now. As you all celebrate Father’s day, the only Father I have known is the one in Heaven. In a sense I felt I lost Him too. But on the positive end, not having much of family makes me seek that re-connection all the more.

Heber wrote ” You can’t have hate for your enemies and love for God in your heart at the same time”.

Funny, how you hear something a thousand times and it does not sink in. I guess I have hate. I hate the act which was done to me (or to anyone like me poor, fatherless, orphaned, etc) and I have not fully forgiven the people attached. Duh, insight that I have never really hated before, and needed to? So many times I could say (because of psychology training and/or the spirit) Father forgive the for they know not what they do. I believe these supposed LDS, cons knew exactly what they were doing. Maybe not.

[Alexia]

I am always thrilled when one human can touch the lives of others, as your shared thoughts have done for me and for other readers.

Heber wrote:

“I guess it comes down to my expectations of the Holy Ghost weren’t met. Do you think I read the signs wrong, or missed the answer that was before me? Is your experience anything like mine?”

I do not know about “wrong”, and I am sure answers are around us that we do not pick up, but that is expected in our growth.

(In the 3rd grade I never felt guilty for not recognizing college level material.) My personal experience felt like an amputation. I wonder if there is validity in the idea that sometimes “the answer” is to figure this one on your own. But I don’t want that to be a cop out. I have seen people miss the obvious (obvious to an outsider not linked with the emotions of the situation) so I want to be prepared to hear solutions from the spirit (including my own spirit), figure out solutions to new challenges that don’t come up on my spiritual radar, and take calculated risks.

Nonetheless, in my situation I still felt out of my league in all of the above. The pain was like something I have never known before and I have been thru more than you want to know. I have survived because of my memory of spiritual experiences past, my earthly tasks as a caregiver, some body bending work, and some knowledge of psychology, as well as bits of blessings in the aftermath.

Heber wrote:

I was too reliant on specific mormon doctrine muscles, and neglected some others that I am now building up to balance my TBM muscles with greater strength.

I hear that common theme particularly among life long Mormons. The entire response had perfect flow but I was stumped by the comment about never take a calling again. Please explain.

I think that part of my struggle, in that I don’t care for the feeling of being lukewarm (this does not mean I want to be orthodox!). Rather A passionate life about what I believe. Stories in BOM in which people were offering all that they had in exchange for the spirit, wow can I relate. Every piece of bread was robbed from me, I still do not know how I will survive that, and yet now I find the worse loss is what I call the Holy Ghost. At the moment I feel increased hope because of some of our conversations and spiritual work that I am doing any chance that I can get.

Many posts mention getting closer to nature, so in the middle of a landslide, digging out from the mud before the tsunami comes, there must still be a way to find the beauty. Let me know.

Anyway, I just listened to the convert BYU Philosophy Professor’s Ipod broadcast on this site and it was interesting. I could relate to some degree. I still find it humorous that he is so sold on the evolution bit when there is some recent scientific findings that put a hole in that theory. That does not mean that it is completely untrue, but perhaps scientifically different than what he thinks. We are growing both spiritually and scientifically (I hope). I have not experienced as much rigidity in all areas of the church. On my mission we were taught that there is a difference between the purpose of the scaffolding and the end spiritual product. I must have been a “bad Mormon” all along, because I never thought that we were to see doctrine as end answer, because it changes as we change. But, I still screwed up and got caught up in bad advice for singles.

So the rest of you all are still in the direction of a positive result, a life of love,etc. Great!

I am just leery about being taken in by a false spirit of love, which is more of immediate pleasure or relief. If truth did not matter, some Peyote or Ecstasy, or a good fling may feel beautiful. Maybe the rules help people not make that mistake in the forming years. Meanwhile, am in wonder that strangers here on this site have been more responsive than those that had direct knowledge of members robbing me.

Alexia

[Alexia]

Beautiful! And to add to the cheesy please see skit on God link, perhaps to lighten the weight in pursuit of knowledge

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=849dc7c803281df74bb2&utm_source=newsletter0618&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weeklytopvideos

Alexia

[Alexia]

Thanks Heber,

You say “But my studies and my learning seem to bring me back to the church and God. But I feel I’m different and it brings me back in a new and refreshed way.”

I appreciate that comment. One would ask is it human nature to return to the teachings of their parents, or early experiences? Or is it more? You see as a convert, I attended and studied many religions, and in psychology I attended and studied the variety of theories secular waves of relating to the world. Perhaps that is part of why I felt so desperate after this trauma and loss of the Holy Ghost (or so it feels) because I am convinced that the Church has so much on target in spiritual and psychological realms. Attending other churches is nostalgic, spiritual, and good but if LDS Church is empty, so much more are the others (Not be insulting, just lack of better description of my thoughts)

You say you didn’t know how the Holy Ghost feels until you felt it, but then again, you were taught how to label it once you felt something. (I have an ongoing debate in my mind as I research my world) But I do believe you, as I measure up the Holy Ghost against all taught beliefs secular and religious. Oh that interesting word “brainwash”…such a fine line between encroaching on someone’s self-determination and just plain good teaching. You see some of us had to have our brains washed of self harming habits, self-defeating behaviors, etc. Music, testimonials, love, metaphors, visuals, reinforcement…that is how learning is anchored in our minds. I don’t know if you read my earlier posts but years back a friend had the renown Rick Ross attempt to de-program me. He did not understand that he was using the same psychology that he criticized. Just for a different outcome. still believe it is an outside, external force that inspires us from time to time.

I feel for your family crisis and your feeling “inspired” that backfired. Is that because the inspiration was self induced? or not fine tuned in your action? or giving results that you needed? I am thinking of Nephi getting the plates…inspired but some disaster ensued. Not sure about yours, but my disaster seems harder than I can bear. Was yours? At least you have the Holy Ghost but you’ve graduated to a different phase of it’s use?

You have a forced spiritual muscle, does it ever feel like an amputation? By the way, I hope you regain all your strength and more. I appreciate the fact that you are looking outside the church to find the beauties of the world and let my mormon beliefs grow beyond where they were before. My question is do you feel luke warm in your testimony now? Some have suggested a luke warm USE of their Church membership. I hope I don’t come across as all or nothing thinking, but is this God’s plan? and just a part of the meat since we are past milk stage?

I find your final statement thought provoking. “I think all good comes from God, and we don’t need to narrow that channel to just the Holy Ghost whispering in my ear. Sometimes, the beauty of the earth already has the wind to blow in my ear and make me feel alive.” I certainly have not spent enough time enjoying the beauty!! Yet it seems that we are entering a time in the earth in which the Holy Ghost will be critical.

Application of my psychology helped me to process the PTSD, but it is the radiance of the absolute eternal truth and light that

I need now. Someone said Be Still and Know God”.

Your shared thoughts have been helpful

Alexia

[Alexia]

By the way, I don’t agree with Ellis’ over generalization. Again, my aim is to get closer to the truth and so I remain aware of the psychological elements of belief systems. And yes I am very familiar with Campbell’s work on the Power of Myth. There are many interesting books on Why People Believe Strange Things, etc. But I could also write a book on why people don’t believe or why people can’t see that many of the non-religious logical beliefs are actually myths.

I do not consider myself orthodox or conventional but I do believe that accurate knowledge (obedience) eventually lends itself to increased freedom and exploration of broader truth. I thought I was on that road once. (Note:Emphasis is not obedience to culture or habits of a people)

Church leaders have told us that there are different “revelations” and some are not positive. That is at the core of my current search. For me to have believed in the gospel, in the power of the Holy Ghost, it had to be something extremely convincing. But now what?

JMB wrote:

“For me, from the little psychology I know of, I have chalked most of my experiences to “mind work.” To me this doesn’t mean they don’t have value, I just had to shift my perception of the value they have in my life”.

I agree that “mind work” is not bad, in and of itself. Our bodies were set up to do this and obviously the results can have great value. Some current theories suggest that this is the meaning/purpose of life to create your own experience (life movie). Interestingly, I would not have trouble with some version of that being true within the gospel.

Re: internal metaphors, JMB wrote: “I don’t believe that Joseph actually saw (with his natural eyes) an angel, or God, or Jesus. I don’t believe that he actually saw anything in the peepstone in the hat. I don’t believe that Joseph was actually communicating (with his mouth, in an external sense) with Moses, Elias, Elijah, angels, God, or Jesus. If anything, I would say he possibly had some form of sleep paralysis (possibly in an awake state as well) that led him to be convinced they were external realities. I don’t think Joseph was an outright charlatan. I just don’t accept that. Therefore, I believe he truly believed what he was doing was right, he was just taking too literally his own psychological experiences. “

That could be true but I certainly don’t want to be closed to the idea that some of this could have been a physical reality that is not understood. An isolated tribe in Peruvian jungles may misunderstand an I-Phone, or might think they hear internal voices or external spirits when a modern explorers megaphone presented into their awareness for the first time. A psychologist not knowing about the explorer may immediately assume the native is superstitious, or mentally ill. (what a fun mind trip)

If “revelation” comes in the form of ideas, love, spiritual experiences(forgot to ask what that means to you), love, and profound thoughts, which I am sure that it does… what does it matter. Is love the only power?

Lady W believes in something outside of what our mind creates, and a firm belief in the spirit or the HG. “When I have a moment of doubt, I am prone to question sometimes as I am only human, and we humans do that as we often have trouble fully trusting God ” And then I ask, where did your belief come from?

There are many beautiful scripture verses. How do you know which, if any, are real? Eg. A prophet being upset with children for making fun of him and then have them eaten by She Bears? (Be Assured I love the scriptures)

I have felt that alignment with the will of God before that you refer to. And years of that kind of response, even with life’s troubles can be joyful. Yet, Making no comparison with the Holy, what might a period of feeling that God has forsaken you as did Jesus on the Christ mean to you? (Thanks for the song)

We are healing as we speak

Alexia

[Alexia]

For those that do not read all prior posts on this topic I thought I better add the fact that I did feel the Holy Ghost strongly in the past, and still believe, or want to believe, that it was above and beyond the psychological explanations of thought processing. On the other hand, if I fell to mere creation of thought and sensation, I would focus my efforts differently in the future.

Alexia

[Alexia]

No, there does not HAVE to be something outside of us. I hesitate to bring this up, but in my field religious ideas often have a negative stigma, or a knee jerk categorization as mentally unhealthy. A renown psychologist Albert Ellis has a reputation of instilling the concept that people that are religious are essentially mentally ill. Can you imagine what it is like to read the Bible that focuses on those that hear external voices, even one that tells Abraham to kill his son, when you have been trained to see that as a dysfunction of the brain? Or to suppose that there is a difference between one prophet and another, from a variety of churches or beliefs, such as Joseph Smith, Joan of Arc, Ellen White, etc. One is dysfunctional, one is of the devil, one is wrong, one is right? For me to have believed, it had to be something quite convincing.

And then, at a more common level, people find themselves creating their world by thought patterns and “sealing” or anchoring that into a regenerating belief system via emotions. So it is that a skeptic asks is this truth or desire? is this spirit or emotion? is this the Holy Ghost or self-talk according to our perceptions? (So when I lose the spirit, I revert to ask myself if it was all “mind work” in the first place)

My question is if people aware of brain/mind function, still believe in the Holy Ghost, or God for that matter, how do they make sense of it. A God could work without the Holy Ghost being external, yet in the Church we are told that it is personage (though it may have a force of delegated communication, “angels”, etc)

The new age “Secret” and manifesting intention has so many of the positive thinking and reframing concepts that has been used for ages in psychology. But some of the quantum theories allude, not to magic but what one might consider mind control over the elements. So we are back to the biblical duel between power of God and whatever the magicians were doing.

I am asking for those that feel that there is/was something beyond what the mind creates, I want to hear from you. I want to make sense of what happened and learn from mistakes.

I am the one that needs enlightenment

Alexia

[Alexia]

Heretic, Thanks for the list. Sometimes a word holds a particular sting to it though the job still needs to get done. Thanks for your patience with me and your staying power.

The next response was interesting. Some people don’t notice or experience the Holy Ghost outside of psychological phenomenon. That is my field but I would love to hear from someone in the field familiar with those mechanisms and still believes that there is something that speaks to us, outside of us. The new age “Secret” and manifesting intention has so many of the positive thinking and reframing concepts that has been used for ages in psychology. But some of the quantum theories allude, not to magic but what one might consider mind control over the elements. So we are back to the biblical duel between power of God and whatever the magicians were doing.

Did I bring all of this evil upon myself psychologically, spiritually, incidentally?

Alexia

[Alexia]

Can you tell me what verb matches with patience? It is a hard word to hear at retirement age and having not lived the life desired. I am not dead yet, that is a good sign. The positive is that I have seen beauty and miracles in the past and hope to see them again, though I must reframe what kind I expect. Your response do help.

I was already able to laugh at every time I paid tithing something occurred that set me back more than that amount. Some of the things that happened were so ridiculous it is as if meant for a (tragic) comedy. It will make for good review someday.

What to do while I am being patient? Being still is different than waiting. I am afraid if I stop “moving” I will give up.

It seems that the lesson I have is for listening to the spirit. I can’t rely on loud messages over the pulpit. Funny it comes at a time that I am actually losesing my physical hearing. Again your example of patience on your mission was a good example to follow.

Alexia

[Alexia]

I will keep pounding on the doors of heaven. I thought I was pounding when I went to church and then that “17 points of true church” came up. I guess might as well do all the cleansing now. I guess we will all have the rug of old beliefs taken out from under us, and what we do then is what is important.

Hope you find the song, and thank you for the effort.

Alexia

[Alexia]

Be like Job. “The Lord Giveth, the Lord Taketh, Blessed be the Name of the Lord” , I used to love Gene Cook’s talk on faith that included that concept. I have faith in his faith.

But, Went to church, great talks and one reminded me of an old inspiring 17 points of the True Church by Floyd Weston. I was excited that perhaps reviewing that could help me rebuild my faith. Googled it and there is talk of it all being a charade. Anyone know facts on that?

I am not giving up, but that was one more slap. The speaker’s tender show of love for his daughter was touching so I still got something positive.

Blessed be the Name of the Lord, I Hope, I Pray

Alexia

[Alexia]

Though I was physically and emotionally drained by other negative events previous to this major event(as discussed earlier), When it did happen I guess that I expected that I should be able to discern these frauds that came in to my life “as if an answer to a prayer”. It seemed that in the past I had some level of discernment before when I received answers to prayers. And the Lord knew my health situation and the need to retire (maybe not my time?). I did have some questions like “these guys are Mormon, hmm, it feels a little different”. They had a Temple calendar/flyers in their office. I quickly criticized myself for being judgmental or doubting. Gee these guys were backed by the community and were missionary minded(hah) And then I allowed myself to be screwed accordingly.

That is why my core question on the blog has to do with the Holy Ghost. Shall I be deceived again? What is the gift of Holy Ghost? What did I do to lose it? How do I regain it and refine it at a more precise level? Will I survive to even get a chance at doing that.

And then being human, I was livid w/ the LDS (in name) con men, and question, how can any human be so cruel, much less LDS/Christian human? The latter confrontations by the main con guy, were quite frightening, I won’t try to describe, but it felt evil.

I did not feel protected! I must say that at one point I was blessed by a female(that I did not know in person ) LDS business person who helped me at least not think that I was possessed or paranoid. She found previous law suits on these guys of a similar nature. I believe that she was part of blessing, if you will.

If you know anything about PTSD, which I experienced, there can be changes in the brain, and other physical side effects. I was already disabled to an extent before that. It is recommended not to make too many major decisions at that point. But I had to do something.

Before I was ready to do so, I pleaded for legal help (explained earlier post), I started selling everything I had of worth (not much), I tried to get extra work, though I am also responsible as sole caregiver to be at home. I got up early and dumpster dived to get anything to pay bills. I prayed, read scriptures, reviewed my life for repentance and begged for the spirit to give relief at least sufficient to get a few more hours of sleep. 5 hours sleep for a one lung and ill body does not seem to work. I attempted to sell the house, meanwhile transportation broke down 8 times, broken into and stolen parts 3 times, roof fell in, AC broke, lost one job, had 3 new severe physical health issues, no health insurance, and was threatened to lose part time work if I did not stay up and catch up w/reports, etc. All my communication about the situation had to be done in private because my mother suffers from anxiety disorder plus she is anti-mormon, so knowing all of this would have done her in. She had several “episodes” just by realization that something was wrong w/ the already low standard of financial stability.

Meanwhile, feeling abandoned by God. Eventually trying to think positively, like the Lord must think I am stronger than I really am (joke). I tried to research info but had zero time, only now do I have the courage to leave other duties undone to work on this spiritual dilemma. Frankly, I am proud of myself for my work to regain emotional strength in the midst of this mess. I have learned to do a few more type of repairs. Thru the past I have HAD to learn mechanics, plumbing, drywall, mold removal, insulation, furniture repair, painting, stucco, roof repair, electric, advocating with mortgage company, serve as my own attorney,use the computer, etc. I will be multi-talented but dead.

My life is comprehensive of my choices, good and bad, in face of life as it unfolds. As I mentioned before, I believe that I misunderstood the rules in the Church and perhaps would have been better off to marry even if it was outside of church. To gain family. Not sure. I did have a more “liberal” (yuk, I hate both “liberal” and “conservative” terms) view of different doctrine but focused on my bio family rather than future life . I am sure I could have done other things. Did I waste time being hurt, angry? Well here I am, and if there is something more I can do , that is precisely why I am here. Another perspective.

Sorry long answer- tired but hopeful

Alexia

[Alexia]

How did I miss that thread? (wish I had been part of that discussion)Some more defined discussion on the Holy Ghost that I find helpful!. Such interesting ideas, some that I had skipping thru my mind before. I need to go back and finish reading. It still leaves me stumped on the” gift of the Holy Ghost vs. that spirit given to all.”

Thinking of faith, the spirit, eg. in the movie “Faith Like Potatoes” (non-LDS) vs. the gift bestowed upon members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Also concerned about confusing signals and messages.

Angels, team of Holy Ghost, relatives,… I need their help and am to deft to get it at the current moment.

Alexia

[Alexia]

Mormon Heretic,

You say “What is so hard for me is understanding why God seems to answer certain people and not others. I have no answer for that. Sometimes people go through all the steps of Alma 32 and don’t get the answer. I do not understand why, but I don’t deny that their experiences are just as valid as mine. The best answer that I can come up with is found in D&C 46.”

My question: Can you develop any gift? What do you believe the Holy Ghost is? (Are people avoiding the latter question?)

By the way your gift seems to be working just fine.

Alexia

[Alexia]

Thanks Just me for your message that” The gift of “feeling the Spirit” and inspiration (even if its in my mind it is my reality)”. I had that gift to some extent in the past and that is why I cannot divorce from this Church’s spiritual arena without testing out truths again. My life mission has been to try and show love to others , as if a Mormon Nun, and now as you say, my desperate search is to find love in others. Yet, perhaps I relied too heavily on the idea that “By their fruits ye shall know them”. Wow what a basket of evil fruit I have met these last three or so years. (I’m sure I have been a rotten apple myself at times)

But feeling cut off from the source of Love makes loving others a challenge. I wonder? Will I no longer be inspired in my help to others? Strange and embarrassing story but after my mission I had an incredible incident. I was struggling months after my lung removal. I went to church a bit late and felt moved to leave. What spirit tells you to leave church? I thought, well I’m going anyway. I drove a bit and was engrossed in the road. I felt to break my stare and turn to the left. “Go into that church”(another LDS chapel) I am stubborn and skeptic, so I told myself, there must be a chapel on every corner around here, maybe that is why I see it. A strong impression of a voice said “Why do you think I told you to turn to your left.Go In”. So I did. Outside in the parking lot was a former missionary companion that I loved dearly. She was crying and had experienced great pain with a relationship & gospel issue. I just walked up to her and hugged her, and said, did you call for help (meaning here I am to help the Lord’s work for you). It was an intense feeling of amazing grace, peace, love, etc. We walked inside the chapel and sat with a few other friends, one from mission (I did not previously know that any of them were there). We sat silent, the occurrence was spiritually over the top. Description lacking, my point is that days later I felt jealous that God did not come and help me that way (Don’t bother telling me, I know He). Yet back to my senses I was glad to be a tool. Can I be a tool now? Broken?

[Author]

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