Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
“Letting go of what has been done to you” That has been my effort, to let go though it is still happening to me. At least I feel the strength to talk about it. I have asked the Lord to help me to feel the spirit again. Not a sign but not complete darkness.If He exists I will get His help, if not I must do it on my own. But there really is no such thing as on our own. In counseling, we use a method of bringing our mind to the ability of accepting an abusive client, such as a pedophile, by looking at their baby photo. This helps to see the person in their pure,innocent state. Making it possible to work with a person that has committed an unthinkable act. Believe me I want to forgive these unrepentant group that destroyed me. They have not repented or acknowledged wrong doing. Well I hear that the brother of the main scam artist did. Though he was not one that I was directly hit by, it helped to know that someone felt something. I can’t bare to think that they will continue to do this to others.
Wow, the Bishop thing is a harsh case. Changing wards, but if/when you see him in temple does your mind revert back to former negative images? I love your handcuffing description of handling triggers of fear etc. “ . . . take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” ? It is similar to what I did once out of “Emotional Emergency Room in my mind”. Part of my obstacle was that I was blaming God so did not trust Him.
I kept think, if it was just me I could handle this, but my anti-mormon mother who I care for, this is fuel for her demise. Isn’t there another way to test my faith? Is this a mere..life happens?
Alexia
“Just me”, that was very soft touch response which is refreshing after a hard days’ life at times. Thank you. I am following the advice, meanwhile do not let me discourage you by my next point.
I read comments on another blog that describe my concern.
Basically, there is a circular logic present here, which will reinforce the pre-existing beliefs of the individual, regardless of what happens. While I realize that logic has its limits, especially when dealing with matters of faith, still there is a problem here.
To give an example from an LDS perspective: if you have a non-member friend who is praying to know if their Church is “true,” and they do not receive an affirmative response, you might then suggest to this person that this means that they need to question the truthfulness of their Church. But if they were praying if the LDS Church was true, and no affirmative response was received, you would be inclined to interpret this as God’s requiring more time, faith, and effort in order to receive a response.
The same conundrum can be seen with prayer – if one prays for some specific matter, if events unfold in such a way as to suggest that the prayer was “answered” then one’s faith is confirmed. If events unfold differently, then either one had insufficient faith, more time is needed, or God had other plans. In either case, one’s faith is reinforced, regardless of what happens.
At what point does not receiving an answer justify you in questioning the entire matter, whether it be if a given Church is “true”, whether or not God answers prayers, or if God even exists? If it’s a non-member praying about their Church, we would suggest that waiting further will not change anything, and that they have already received their answer. But if it’s an investigator praying about our Church, or God’s existence, we would see this very differently, and advise them to wait longer until the “trial of their faith” is over.
Does anybody else find this overall approach to truth, faith and belief troubling?”
That blog kind of sums up the fact I appreciate lessons of faith, hope and patience, as long as I am not planting a rock and expecting it to grow. Or if I am merely stuck in the brain trap of rationalizing prior beliefs. I hope Father exists, knows and loves me. If the Church is the best place for me to develop at this time so be it. But I don’t want to be the nun that sacrificed the “wrong” things for God, even if it does not harm her reward. If it is full of the best truth available at this time, let me shout it from the roof tops. But prefer to make acceptable sacrifices.
Thanks for prayers that I believe have impact.
Alexia
(Answering both Heretic and Just me), Heretic, that story is a helpful one. Maybe you first mission was preparing for “this one”. Please know that I say that w/out the typical Mormon habit of placating or rationalizing. I believe that many missionaries are in service of preparation, and hopefully others will benefit from it as well.
I love the fact you point out scriptures re: “our hearts were depressed” and they were about to “turn back”. I have wondered what I would turn back too (I think John Dehlin mentions those that lose testimony of Church often lose belief in all, including God). Psychologically I have always admired the story of Sodom and not turning back, to turn to salt, or not turning back as a dog does to it’s vomit. But, on the other hand one MUST turn back if on the wrong path. That is my quandary.
I never want to talk myself into believing the Emperor is wearing clothes if truth is that he is absolutely nude. The only hope that I have that I may not be forcing something that isn’t, is because I know myself as a skeptic, and for me to have ever believed in the gospel in the first place, and with the subsequent spiritual experiences makes me want to give this a chance, to see IF I am only in a spiritual coma. You know with all the quantum manifestation stuff, it is thought that one paints and creates what they WANT to believe.?!?
It seems in your story you were low and discouraged but did you completely lose belief? I ask because I have felt like the prodigal daughter in the past, after return from sin or omission of good,but this time it feels as if there is no Father/family to go back to (forgive me).
And yes, the spirit of prophecy, revelation, power, and authority of God is quite appealing. Appealing enough to want it to be real and then patience makes sense. (unless you plant a rock, and expect it to grow)
Just Me, “All humans are spiritually dead”. But after birth they can die again? Be reborn again?
And re:Bishop storehouse, etc. We have talked about that, and who knows, but how strange to admit to a bishop that you no longer believe, (though you attend wanting to believe) but want financial help? ooooh
By the way all, I was reviewing research about prayer having significant measurable impact, even when the subject is not aware of the praying group. When three of you are together,… Kind of puts the single member, with unbelieving relatives at a disadvantage unless he/she can find a group to pray with zeal as they would for their own family member.
In a way, I have found the three here.
So grateful
Alexia
“If these people were not LDS, I suspect it still have affected your spirituality” I agree to slight degree , I think it would have depressed me and challenged my spirit but I do not think I would have lost it all. The LDS rip-offs in the past “stung” but this one was different. Perhaps with the other LDS people that screwed me, I could say Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Maybe they were desperate, naive, ignorant, out of touch, one was from another country so I thought he may not understand the Church yet(don’t judge that) . But this evil group, These guys did not bat an eye to see a single disabled person, with widowed mother, out on the streets, and begging for them to do the right thing. In fact their behavior and aura was far beyond unethical. Do you really believe that a mere “Low” is like this? Again, if it is, please tell me about someone that lost all strong and seasoned believe and had it return.
Just curious, I know it is slow process but, it seems some Bible and Book Mormon stories somewhere give examples of heavenly intervention that gave more immediate response. Keep in mind that this ordeal has been going on for near three years.
Thanks for your time and thoughts
Alexia
Your thoughts are very helpful. Meanwhile, the situation is much messier than a blog can handle. We all get screwed sometime. But one hopes to get a chance to take a breath until the next pounding. So do you consider your uncle truly inspired? Or just that he made the best out of a bad reading of the spirit? If negative experiences are all for our good leading to things we needed to learn, then I must have been in the crash course, or concentrated camp of remedial spirits. As I said before, up until now, my past suffering seems to have resulted in positive. But this is like no other. By the way I also had cancer, a lung removed, and feel that I was blessed to survive, so just reframing that memory helps.
I can’t quite look back yet, as you recommend, because I am still in it. But I feel some hope that I will look back. Or perhaps not look back so that I don’t turn into a pillar of sand! I am going slowly but that has its consequence as well.
Meanwhile I’m sure I have murmured. I do try not to do it in front of those it may harm. I so loved the passion of giving strength to others rather than sucking them dry of their own testimony. I don’t believe I have to express great anger, I would like to reframe this somehow.
Searching for light and positive attitude during construction zone (of my dead soul). Just want to know that indeed this temple can be rebuilt. Others may be consoled with the fact they have family and a life. I really only had the love of truth and comfort of living by the spirit. Everyone was family and now I am not so sure. But, here I am.
To be sad is not depressing unless there is no hope of being full of joy somewhere, sometime. Still working on it.
Thank you
Alexia
Yes, vague terms. A bit more specific is that I had 4 recent unbelievable situations in which LDS people cost me great emotional suffering and financial loss because of their illegal/unethical behavior. Previously I had a stream of other negative experiences but there was always a way to understand, forgive, learn, and move on. But then I had a real estate group of LDS professionals that came in to “help” with my rental protection at the point I was drowning and did not have a clue what to do. But then they ended up in a sense owning my home and a causing a loss of every penny ever painstakingly gathered so that my elderly parent exist. It was done illegally and they also threatened me in a way I cannot describe here. LDS attorneys would not take a case against them. Finally an out of state LDS attorney took the company on and won 13 million dollar case for another client for similar damage. The company has changed their names 10 times or so and recreate the same con and fool the very experts in the field. Now that I write it, I guess it would have helped me emotionally if the Church authorities had at least said, sorry for your loss, though they hold no responsibility for the events (though if our Church is into excommunication as a remedial response for failing students, these crooks should have been first on the list) If I were younger, if I had family, family that were members, if I had health, if I had support to survive, all of this would be easier. But I guess that might defeat the point. Reality says it is not different.
These bad guys showed up at a culminating moment of my need. My bad, I was so unhealthy that I accepted it without praying for discernment (which used to be my gift). These real estate crooks were not only big in the market, accepted by real estate board (later found out the board knew about the history of cons), they were LDS.
Did I miss the Spirit of protection? Can I forgive them as they continue to eat 5 course meals and I dumpster dive for cans? If I ever came across them in church or worse,the temple. How can I forgive when I was so busy trying to survive on less than 5 hour sleep, working daily (yes) that I could not get a chance to kneel as I walked home from the broken down car.
It is only now that I have a second to work on forgiving. To talk about this to strangers. To care about my soul as well as theirs. The trouble is that my soul is missing in action. I am relying on the strength of memories and miracles of my LDS mission and life experiences.
The greater sin is mine, but now striving for greater faith to remember and to believe, though it seems impossible. Temporary weak testimony, is workable. Dead spirit? Not sure but I am going to try.
Thanks all,
Alexia
I wanted to down play the incident that triggered the Trauma but I mention it in earlier posts. I am in the field to diagnose PTSD and fortunately know how to deal with that even though I do not have insurance to add in traditional medical approaches. Bottom line is that the real issue was (IMO) more importantly related to Holy Ghost (or lack there of) during an incident with what I would call “evil” in LDS clothing (those professing to be LDS but acting w/cruelty & without conscience). So that is why I have been asking about the Holy Ghost. Meanwhile I know that I must forgive those that crushed me, and overcome the fear of man and the loss of connection with God that resulted. I am now forced to address Maslow’s hierarchy and that is to struggle with basic survival needs while yearning for self-actualization thru the spirit. The theory insinuates that it can’t be done, but it seems that in impoverished countries there are examples of spirit giants able to forgo the importance of physical food, in a sense.
Again, it is a matter of feeling that this was more than I can bear (and if you knew my history, I have been thru harsh ordeals without much of a scratch). Does the Holy Ghost mean something real? Is it more than a feeling of connectedness with self and nature? Can a person be brought back from spiritual coma or death a second time (Someone mentioned conversion & baptism earlier)?.
Alexia
Do you think the average member goes to the “low” of not believing in anything? My belief is at a point of 1) feeling sharp pain 2)feeling numb 3) believing in nothing more than it is good to be good to others 4) Entertaining thoughts that I have wasted my life in terms of sacrificing family, and marriage (only offers from non-LDS) 5) and Angry at recent trauma
On the other hand I believe that positive, faith, and creative good has much power. I know that when your soul is low you can get it back, but what about when it is gone, empty. Can the spiritually dead be brought back?
(I am hoping that Post Traumatic Stress, and depression/discouragement aside there will be a chance for renewed belief. With depression, I know the body and mind can cycle back. I do not know about this type of spiritual death or coma. Does anyone know anyone that has “come back to life”?
I get moments of hope that I can find truth and light. Appreciate the comments
Alexia
Swimordie and Others, In theory I have always believed that God loves me as He demonstrated by His love for so many other “sinners” (students).
I believe like you do that He loves us unconditionally. Meanwhile as with any loving parent, there are still behavioral consequences for the children. FOR OUR LEARNING. But this A student flunked this one.I feel desperate for a life jacket, after I was thrown off the boat,( or even if my own stupidity got me there).
Hey if your jealous of hardship experiences, this would be a good time for vicarious exchange. But truly, in the past I liked the traits that my hardships developed in me, but this experience is like the walking dead! I want to feel His love and protection. It is the only place I have ever really received it.
Has anyone been risen from the spiritual dead?
Alexia
Posts: 36
Joined: 02 Jun 2009, 22:50
Just an extra thought on “withdrawals” Anyone remember an old film with Christopher Reeves called
Somewhere in Time.He travels to the past and while there falls in love with Jane Seymor. The way he got to the past (his belief system) was to dress the part and remove everything from his current time. Except that he left a current penny in his pocket. So while he is in the midst of his love life, he accidentally pulls out the coin and upon seeing it, is hurled back to current time. He tries to re-create the procedure of belief. He dresses the part, lies in bed and tries his best to visualize his love of the past life and time with his love. It does not work. His agony is mine (for now).
Alexia
I am gaining strength by the conversation. Thanks Heber asked:
1) What are you currently doing to show God you love Him [Her, it, or whatever your faith is in God] and what are you doing to show love to your neighbor?
2) What do you define as a spiritual manifestation in your life? IOW, what are you expecting to happen that you feel is not or is missing that you don’t feel “whole” and are expecting to fill that void?
Answer: I hope God lives, and I so I review the love and miracles that I believe that I received in the past. How can I deny them?(My bad, I used to wonder how witnesses to the angel and coming forth of B of M could leave the Church. Unfortunately, or fortunately, Now I know). On my frantic way of surviving the financial survival that resulted from my trauma, I do try and look up from the grind and peek at nature as I run to take care of business. To appreciate nature’s beauty and creation. I also think if this spiritual death that I feel,( I keep crying this is more than I can bare), what did great people like Jesus feel? And as far as love to my neighbor, that has been something I could never stop doing. In fact part of my isolation has been that I feared my loss of spirit would in a sense be contagious. For sure I do not feel I can give, backed by power, as I did in the past. But I give what I have, which is a whole lot less.
Expectations of the spirit. Wow!?! Peace, ah hah, small voice, louder voice on occasion, freedom, passion to share the gospel, inspiration flashes, support in the journey, correction (particularly when my sacrifice is the wrong one), sensing presence and love. All the while knowing my responsibility (lack of better word) in this.
Still hoping some re-committed members can tell me if they believe the spirit is anything more than alignment with self, or the universal wave.
Grateful, So grateful
Alexia
“You have to be standing on the tracks if you want to get hit by the train.” This is great, I get it. Though I realize that a lot of anti-mormons believe that this is an example of our rationalization of the mind/or cognitive dissonance, in which we stick around to “make it make sense” because we have so much invested in the belief. Easy to understand how one could see the metaphor as more accurate of the destruction via self deception. I want to make sure that I am not doing that. (Can you believe this? Years back a friend had Rick Ross meet me to deprogram me from the Church).
For me, Sometimes attending church now, is like a former Gold Medalist watching the Olympics after legs are paralyzed. But because I have a strong memory of the spirit from the past, and hope that it was real beyond a mere casual knee reflex emotion, I am standing on the tracks the best I can. But for how long without the reinforcement of feeling something? Am I forsaken? That thought is scary.
I do believe that my inability to forgive a group of “church members” (at least they claim they are) is separating me from God. I think I will eventually be able to forgive, but I am still experiencing the trauma. Am I worthy? I don’t find the question offensive. All I know is that whether the gospel is true or not, I must forgive to feel whole. OK, lets get to the greater issue. Perhaps I am mad at God for not protecting me from this trauma (of having been conned out of all that I owned).Haven’t I suffered enough?
(My friends used to read my patriarchal blessing and jokingly summarize it by saying it reads “Dear Alexia, you going to meet constant hardships on earth, good luck if you make it back home. Love, Your Father in Heaven.”
I appreciate the list. And as Ray quotes “Be still and know that I am God”. I recently assessed that was very much needed (part of my aim is to quiet the pain by communication here). The trick is how to be quiet when your brain and body are still being pummeled by the negative experience. Eg. I am working 24/7 to avoid living on the streets, with my disabled mother I care for along with me. No pity party. How did other sufferers find quiet and stillness, during their frantic barn burning??
I do feel good when I am helping other people, when I can block out the thought that I need to rest. It does energize me and helps me forget Hell for a few minutes. My Hope is that I will come out spiritually stronger than ever. I can now relate to people that no longer love their spouse but work to re-create that experience. It feels like the love will never be there and then one day it does ( I don’t want to be divorced from God)
Please keep the advice coming.
Alexia
