[alltruth]

I’ve had many such experiences. What’s helped me is to remember that “revulsion” is not a feeling God wants us to feel towards people. Even if the FP is made up of the worst type of men ever to have lived in this sin sick world, God still loves them.

When I feel that type of thing I just have to think “man, why am I feeling that way?”. Then I try to look at the picture again, try to see them through God’s eyes, and usually that at least gets me through the day.

[alltruth]

Well, it looks like you’ve got tons of responses, so I’ll try to be short. You said one thing that caught my eye:

“The more I read the less I feel”

I may be interpreting that differently than how you meant to say it, but I can relate. My answer? Stop reading for awhile. Not feeling is not good. Let things settle. Take two weeks and just ponder what you’ve learned. See what happens.

For me, I get to that point where I’m wondering, “How in the world can I StayLDS?” and I just have to step back from it for awhile. It might not be the case for you, but I’ve always been able to find a reason to stick around.

One other thing I try to do is spend as much time reading materials that are written by true believers as I do reading things written by true doubters (or even those who are antagonistic). It gives me the full spectrum, and generally I find myself saying, “you know, they might both be right.” 😆

Best of luck to you. You sound like a thoughtful person, and thoughtful people generally make out all right in this world.

[alltruth]

Ah, Uncle Google; he’s got a great memory, that one!

[alltruth]

As I read your post I found myself thinking “I bet this is how the leadership of the church feels, too.” Leading any organization is challenging, and I thank you for your efforts here. I hope you can find a way to resolve the tension you feel about your dual roles here on the forum…

[alltruth]

The best thing about this statement for me? My beautiful wife read it (she’s actually the one who told me about it) and said something to the effect of, “After reading this I don’t think you’re an apostate…”. Hooray! :clap:

[alltruth]

I don’t know why you have the avatar you do, Cadence, but if it’s because you enjoy Star Trek, you may have more of an appreciation for mythology than you know. http://ksarchive.com/viewstory.php?sid=4899” class=”bbcode_url”>http://ksarchive.com/viewstory.php?sid=4899

As for me, the myth in Mormonism is tremendously appealing. You have to admit, no matter what you believe about the veracity of the church and it’s teachings, it’s one great story! 😆

[alltruth]

I just had an interesting experience regarding this on Monday. For FHE my wife taught about the pre-existence and kept saying things about how we chose our families before we came to Earth. She saw my reaction, and after FHE, asked me why I was so upset. I told her I didn’t think it was doctrinal, so she told me to look it up. I did, and the church is pretty clear that this teaching is not doctrinal. I got it off lds.org, so it’s right from the horses mouth. I’ll get the exact quote tonight, but I’m at work right now.

Here’s one: Joseph Fielding Smith said: “We have no scriptural justification for the belief that we had the privilege of choosing our parents and our life companions in the spirit world.

That’s not the one from the church I saw, but it’s a start. Don’t know why it’s so hard to find this time – it popped right up when I did it the other night! 🙄

Okay here we go: the First Presidency in 1971 stated that “we have no revealed word to the effect that when we were in the preexistent state we chose our parents and our husbands and wives.”

It goes on to say: But the answer we have been given by the Brethren is that “we have no revealed word” on this matter. And in this and many similar matters Church leaders have counseled us to avoid teaching doctrines that are not clearly defined in the scriptures or by current prophets.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/06/i-have-a-question?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/06/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

So there you have it!

[alltruth]

Hello Tim,

Welcome! It sounds like you may be a little battered and bruised by your experience, but the good news is that you have come to the right place to heal up and move forward (wherever that may take you).

I just wanted to address a few of your points, not in an attempt to persuade you, but to perhaps open up a space where the things you’ve found don’t seem quite so damning.

You worry about the age of the Earth and evolution. So have many of the apostles! In fact, there was significant disagreement between the Quorum of the Twelve, and in the end, the church made some official statements that I’ll let you interpret for yourself. Here’s the link to the pdf http://www.mormonfortress.com/evolution.pdf” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormonfortress.com/evolution.pdf.

I can’t speak to the Warren Jeffs issue. One of the things I worry most about is how people “know” things. I have a sneaking suspicion that we humans can convince ourselves we “know” just about anything. It’s a thorny issue.

There are some good threads here on the board about the temple. Just type “temple” in the search bar, and I think you’ll find some good stuff.

I’m not quite following your argument about the 99.9%. Are you saying that only .1% of the earth’s population is Mormon? Or that only .1% of the earth’s population has had the opportunity to have the gospel preached to them? If you’re worried about the former, it may help you to think about the fact that there just happen to be about as many Jews (God’s chosen people, if you believe the Bible) as there are Mormons. http://www.jewfaq.org/populatn.htm” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.jewfaq.org/populatn.htm Just something to chew on.

Finally, you say “I learned all of these facts about church history that kept reducing the probability that the church was true”. This is interesting because when I have left the church or thought about leaving it, I have always asked myself whether the probability that the church isn’t “true” outweighs the probability that the church is “true”. What I’ve come to realize over the years is that this isn’t a fair question. The more I study, the more I see that I haven’t even scratched the surface of what is available (both pro and anti). Knowing that, I have to admit that my calculations regarding probability are crude at the very best. Maybe you feel differently. Again, just something to look at…

I hope you enjoy the board. It’s a wonderful place to air your concerns without the fear of being judged.

[alltruth]

kristmace,

Is the issue of homosexuality a “push-button” issue for you? I read the article and my feeling is that you’ve taken an article that was written on a very broad topic and projected your own feelings about an issue that you seem to feel strongly about.

And even if you’re assertion that the church is trying to justify it’s position regarding homosexuality and Prop 8 is correct, why is that a problem? Wouldn’t you expect the church to attempt to justify it’s positions? I know that as someone who struggles with the church’s position on homosexuality, I’m constantly trying to justify my position in an effort to help people better understand where I’m coming from…

[alltruth]

I know this doesn’t exactly answer the question, but I found this:

The mean age of a prophet when ordained in 73-years-old.

http://www.moroni10.com/mormon_trivia.html” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.moroni10.com/mormon_trivia.html

If you take out Joseph Smith, that number would obviously creep up a bit.

[alltruth]

SamBee wrote:

Quote:

“I sometimes think that the universe is a machine designed for the perpetual astonishment of astronomers.”

– Arthur C. Clarke (agnostic)

lol. nice. :clap:

[alltruth]

As somebody who’s spent a bit of my life being suicidally depressed (I’m bipolar), I’ve definitely thought about this. The idea of just ending my life to end the suffering has often been appealing, especially if there isn’t life after death.

For people like me, who spend a lot of time suffering, suicide would be the rational thing to do if there is no life after death. It’s just not worth it to hang on when there’s no fear of judgement in an afterlife. Non-existence is a better option than painful existence, especially if the suffering isn’t going to teach me anything that I can’t take with me.

Not sure if that makes sense, but that’s where I land. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I have a great hope that there is life after death, because this life hasn’t been the greatest, and if I can’t take what I’ve learned with me, it will all be for naught. :think:

[alltruth]

Quote:

I think I am going to continue my research for the next year, and make sure that I leave no stone unturned. But until then I will just be quiet in public and not rock the boat. I must say that I do not feel like I am going down a wrong road, to be honest I feel focused, I feel a sense of relief, that this thoughts I have had are not without merit.

Welcome. As a new member myself, I can say that this is a wonderful place to express your thoughts without fear of being judged. I think your idea of researching for the next year or so is a great one. One thing I might recommend is spending equal time trying to find evidence that the church is what it claims to be. For me, that means every hour I spend looking at troubling things, I spend an hour reading things that try to show that “the church is true”. After all, if you spend a whole year looking at nothing but the warts, you may think that there’s nothing else.

Good luck as you walk this difficult path.

[alltruth]

Brown wrote:

I think a lot of these end up being the result of looking for the answer you want, rather than using the scientific method to derive the actual correct answer to an ubiased question.

Well, I’m no scientist, but Pratt definitely is – he has degrees in physics and astronomy. If you’re a scientist, I’d be interested to know what you think about his methods, since I’m not qualified to critique them.

As for Thoreau and Orson, I sympathize with both of your sentiments. One of the rules that I’ve made for myself is that when I’m going through these periods of doubt, I try to spend as much time looking for evidence that things really happened the way the church says as I do researching the inconsistencies and troubling aspects of our religion. In other words, I try not to spend all my time looking at the warts, and spend some time trying to find the beauty of our belief system.

Here’s one last example of what I consider to be an amazing finding by Pratt that uses the sciences of physics and astronomy to confirm a truth that our church teaches – namely that Christ was born on the 6th of April 1 BC.

http://johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2010/venus.html#2” class=”bbcode_url”>http://johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2010/venus.html#2

“2.1 Birth of Jesus: A Unique Time

Let us consider each of four sacred calendars separately. First, consider the Hebrew calendar, which is based on the motions of both the sun and moon. Of the seven symbolic holy days revealed to Moses, Passover apparently represents the day of the birth of Jesus Christ, even as the nation of Israel was “born” on the day of the exodus from Egypt.[5] If that were the only clue we had to his birth, then it could be at Passover in any year at all, for it is an annual spring feast.

The second clue is that the Native American tradition is that the birth of Quetzalcoatl, which appears to have been their name for Jesus Christ, occurred on the day 1 Reed.[6] That day occurs once every 260 days, implying that Passover can only occur on 1 Reed about once in 260 years. In the period from 84 BC through AD 130, the only time on which Passover coincided with 1 Reed was during the night preceding Thu 6 Apr 1 BC. It is pinpointed to the night time because the Hebrew day begins after sunset, whereas the Native American day begins at dawn. The scriptures even tell us that Jesus was born at night (Luke 2:, and the Passover feast is timed to be at night. Thus, this coincidence alone might be enough to convince us that the L.D.S. position that April 6 is the day to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ is not without historical foundation.[7]

But there are two more calendars which point to the day as a unique sacred day in history. There are also Mercury and Venus calendars, which are based on the phases of those planets symbolizing the four sacred events in the life of Quetzalcoatl of Creation, Birth, Prime, and Resurrection. Those calendars most likely begin at midnight, when those evening and morning stars can never be seen. It turns out that the day Wed 5 Apr (midnight to midnight) coincided with “1 Creation” of both of those cycles, being the first day of each cycle. How often do Passover, 1 Reed, and 1 Creation on both Mercury and Venus calendars occur at the same time? Only for one 6 hour period in 7,000 years, from sunset to midnight on Wed 5 Apr 1 BC.

End quote.

(Note that the time from sunset to midnight on the Hebrew calendar would be April 6th, 1 BC since the Hebrew day begins just after sunset. Also note that, to my knowledge, the church is the only one who believes that Christ was born on this date. Most other historians and religious leaders say His birth was sometime between 7-4 BC.)

So here we have the calendars of two planets, one Middle Eastern society and one Mesoamerican society that align during a six hour period that only happens once in 7,000 years, which just happens to be when Mormon scripture (D&C 20:1) and several latter-day prophets proclaim that Christ was born. Coincidence? I don’t know… I’m truly not qualified to critique the argument. To my layman’s brain, though, that seems like pretty compelling evidence.

There are arguments against this position… just google “Jesus birthday April 6” and you’ll get a taste of what other people are saying.

Let me just emphasize that I’m not trying to convince anybody here… I just find it interesting, and think that when we’re going through a crisis of faith, it’s sometimes good to look for evidence that supports the church’s claims. That way we can weigh all the evidence we gather in our own mind, decide what the probability that the church’s claims are true, and make our own decision about what direction we should head.

As a side note, this is one of the things that has kept me in the church despite my doubts. No matter how much evidence I think I’ve accrued that the church isn’t what it claims to be, if I’m being honest, I have to admit that I don’t have all the evidence in front of me, and that if I did, I might feel very different than I do at that moment. Of course, all of us have to decide what the tipping point is – when will the evidence against the truthfulness of the church outweigh our willingness to continue to search for more evidence of it’s claims? That’s a personal decision, and is probably different for each of us…

[alltruth]

brit-exmo wrote:

I remember a big thing that initially caused me to think the church possibly not inspired in all things was the perpetual education fund.

For years I had been taught in church that we should stay out of debt, and avoid it except for house purchases. Then here is the church setting itself up as a loan company! They even charged interest and asked for members to donate to the initial capital.

What would happen if someone defaulted on the loan? Would the church send the baliffs round to turf someone out of their house, and take their possessions as repayment???

Thinking all these things through made me think the leadership had a case of ‘do as i say not as i do’

My understanding was that it was okay to take out debt for housing, education, and a modest amount for reliable transportation. For example, here’s an article from The Ensign… “For most persons, debt generally is a necessary obligation for purchasing a home, a vehicle for transportation, or in some cases for education.” http://www.josephsmith.net/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=624e57b60090c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.josephsmith.net/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=624e57b60090c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

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