Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Ah, but is your inner Nephi absolutely convinced that the man in the tent gave you the Word of God to act upon? That is the the crux of the matter I think. Fair enough. So the interview would be sitting down with the Laman/Lemuel side of me and asking “If you heard [a revelation for you direct from the source], what did you/are you doing about it and how did it/is it influencing your life?”
It still works as a form of introspection…
Roy wrote:
I guess it was only a matter of time before some people tried to profit from all the porn hysteria in the Church.
I have been trying to clarify my views in my mind for days. Thank you for finding the words for me.
Roy wrote:
Basically the Church itself creates a market for this kind of thing because there are young men that think they need to stop all the porn and masturbation once and for all in order to be “worthy” to go on missions, get married in the temple, etc. and there are LDS men with their wife threatening to divorce them that could also use something like this to try to show that they are really serious about stopping.
Yup. I wish I could point out “it’s not that simple” – no matter what stance is adopted towards these behaviors by the married partners, the remedy as prescribed above is not the “magic bullet” that will solve all disputes/concerns/issues in this area within a marriage for all time. Bodies change, perspectives shift, needs change. I feel at best, the overuse of these behaviors is merely a symptom of deeper issues that should be addressed as a team for a better marriage. Even if the behaviors are displayed by only one party of the marriage, I can guarantee that it will take communication and trust between both parties to set the boundaries/goals for their marriage, and achieve success in keeping those boundaries and achieving those goals.
Roy wrote:
So the battle metaphors actually fit fairly well with their goals and target customers because it is all part of playing along with the idea that all of this is supposedly so serious as if it is practically more important than life or death (of any one individual).
Until biology comes back into play to reset the equilibrium for one/both parties.
Blatant example: When a woman is recovering from having a child, she is biologically going to be extremely “less interested” in dedicating resources towards mutual satisfaction at some point. Yes, it does happen – but other factors come into play which shortchange it (maternal sleep deprivation, shifting maternal hormones, harder for female to relax with children, additional family clutter in house, post-natal recovery, potential post-partum depression) . It requires trust and communication to navigate this perilous situation, if first-time parents are given the information to expect this (if it is discussed, it is more academic and “out of sight, out of mind”). Repeat parents may have more mileage from the first get-go (if hindsight is 20/20 in this case), but the situation is still perilous for the first 9 months or so.
Heber13 wrote:
Since Lehi was a prophet, and Nephi was righteous, then groups would follow them because they have the gospel. And then…they hold dances and hookup and make a life of it and raise their children in the church.
I don’t think that Laman and Lemuel saw their father or Nephi as prophets or that they held the gospel. Laman and Lemuel are described as being like unto the Jews who wanted to destroy Lehi in Jerusalem.
I think that Laman and Lemuel followed their dad out of Jerusalem the first time out of obedience to their father. I think that Laman and Lemuel went back for the plates in part to scope out a return to Jerusalem as well as family obedience. Coming back to Jerusalem for wives is a no-brainer for motive. Leaving Jerusalem with Ishmael’s family in tow… motives might have been love, duty, or no better options in their minds (broke unless subsidized by Ishmael), not sure… It could be that the angel’s admonition (mid-plate retrieval in saga) left something in their brain – maybe they realized that their fates were sealed to the fates of Lehi, Nephi, and Sam.
I used to condemn Laman and Lemuel pretty well because of my black and white thinking. Now, I view them more compassionately. I would love to sit down and interview either one of them and ask, “If you saw an angel (as recorded by Nephi) and heard him give both of you individually personal counsel, what did you do about it and how did it influence your life?”
There is that. What we know of Lehi’s standing is what can be extrapolated…
1)
He was now a visionary– he preached to the people. Word would have gotten around… 2)
He left Jerusalem for an extended period of time prior to contact with Ishmael and his family. The timing will need to consider leaving Jerusalem, sons returning to Jerusalem hanging around a few days and leaving again, reporting/resting with Lehi, then the sons showing up on Ishmael’s doorstep. 3)
His money is now gone. I don’t see Ishmael not knowing that Lehi has no assets in Jerusalem. I can see Laban’s death not necessarily connected to Laman and Lemuel specifically unless Laman and Lemuel and co. broadcast Nephi’s actions. It could be that Ishmael was an old crony who didn’t like Laban anyways and was looking for a way out of Jerusalem. It could be that the plans to intermarry the families went way back… Or that Laman and Lemuel were sufficently motivated to make a good sales pitch…or something else entirely…
I have been thinking about it, and if there was a parenting “problem” that can be attributed to the downfall of Laman and Lemuel, I think it is that Lehi’s conversion happened when Laman and Lemuel were too old to adjust to it. Because they were older, they were more invested in setting up their lives in Jerusalem… On a quasi-relate topic – what did Lehi and his family have to offer Ishmael and his family?
“We have no money, but we can offer your daughters hardships in the desert while we wander around looking for the Promised Land and avoiding Laban’s family just in case…” seems a bit scarce on the incentive scale…
I agree that the gospel and the church are not one and the same. C.S. Lewis described Christianity in terms of working with Jesus Christ to update your heart as if your heart were a house ready for remodeling. You invite him expecting a few more cosmetic repairs, only to find that he is taking down walls and expanding the footprint and making more drastic changes than you expected.
To expand on his analogy, I am beginning to view the church as the current fire regulation code for a designated area while using the title “Master Carpenter” to refer to Jesus Christ . A fire regulation code can be useful building/updating buildings in areas where there are lots of fires. The code may even define some of the attributes of the building. However, bear in mind that the Master Carpenter knows a few things about building and upgrading houses that may or may not be “to code”. In fact, the Master Carpenter knows a whole lot more about houses than the code writers (My Ways are not your ways neither are my thoughts, your thoughts.”. Sometimes the Master Carpenter and the fire regulation code say the same thing, and provide valuable instruction on how to build a better house (or heart), but that is not always the case. Just as owners can get ticketed when their buildings appear not to “code” or follow the “code” of the area, so can followers of Christ.
I have drawn inspiration from some mainstream Christianity in becoming a better Christian. C.S. Lewis is a favorite (his Screwtape Letters should be required reading for an Institute class, or the YM/YW awards), but I also listen to Christian music.
While on my mission, I had this experience. I was in my black/white thinking and was struggling with the concept that people could have strong spiritual experiences while having nothing to do with the church, or knowing anything about the church. We were out tracking and came across this nice lady who had just gotten home from work. As we started chatting, we found out that we had a lot in common and had the start of a comfortable conversation. She said that we could share a message with her if she could play this song from a popular Christian music band that had just come out called “I can only imagine”. My companion and I made the judgement call to listen to the song because of what we were talking about in the conversation and because of what we knew about her. That song had a profound influence on me because as we were listening to the song, we felt the Spirit more than I have felt in many meetings at church. It also taught me that while we use and emphasize different words and practices, we have more in common than not. Since then, I have gotten the CD with that song on it, and I listen to it not infrequently.
You’re welcome:) Personally, I prefer to view it as I am a thread water-bearer that restores the thread to life. To my way of thinking, it is the water-bearer brings water (in this case ideas/thoughts) that restore and regrow/expand on what was already there…
[Also I am not particularly a wizard or -mancer type… In playing role-playing games such as D&D, I usually play a fighter/ranger (sometimes a girl has gotta bash/shoot something…), sorceress (why pretend to ponder over tons of books when you can do stuff because of who you innately are), or oracle/cleric (theoretical divine power… what’s not to love?). And yes, my first character was a druid…]
One thing I was realizing while re-reading 1 Nephi is that: Plan A (Laman and Lemuel) – “let’s talk to Laban and see if our family connections can get us the plates..”, so they actively participated in getting attempting to retrieve that plates.
Plan B (Nephi’s plan) – “let’s buy the plates”, which turned into theft of all the Lehi family riches.
I think they got mad enough at point to beat Nephi up because once Laban stole their riches from them, there was no reason to return to Jerusalem. If you were tasked with a task that was difficult and dangerous, you had been defeated 2x, and lost all your possessions, I can see why hitting something might be useful and theraputic….
Hello, I plan to keep y’all up to date.
NOTE: I forgot to mention that my first impression of the Pathways course is that the General Studies class is focused on producing good teachers/improving teaching methods. I am beginning to wonder if one of the lesser (and unstated) goals of the program is to improve the teaching skills of the students so that the church gains better teachers on Sundays. My sister went through Pathways and then got married before transferring to BYU-I and dropping out of college and into the insurance industry. There are a few pre-mission (awaiting papers) students in both of my online classes, and there are some in the other class at my building. There are a smattering of moms with young kids in my classes, so they might become better teachers and have plenty of time serving in the auxiliaries still.
I am coming to learn that part of a FC/FT is changes in concepts of repentance and forgiveness. A very important part of this process is accepting what you still believe/value, and re-prioritizing or rejecting what no longer works. Becoming more nuanced in my choices has increased my tolerance and acceptance of others, which has decreased my need to “forgive” them – by re-defining and re-prioritizing the choices I make, it makes it easier for them not to “offend” me. Granted, the flip side is that it introduces other ways to be “offended”. It seems that it is always a work in progress… I think it is part of moving from a Fowler’s stage 3 to stage 4 or stage 5.
SilentDawning wrote:
It’s shameful really, when you consider that some families, like mine, would be shattered with the pressures of too many children. Some families have the capacity to have more children while maintaining order and peace in the home. Others do not.
I have come to see that my family is in a similar boat. It seems that #2 for us was the stretching point and brought to light a lot of weaknesses and issues that we are in the process of strengthening.
SilentDawning wrote:
One reason my family has survived is because I have not buckled under the pressure from my wife to have more children. I know that issues of housekeeping, and financial freedom could very well overwhelm our marriage and lead to a costly divorce. I know my emotional needs, and I am positive that more children would lead to unmet emotional needs on my part, which would harm the two children we already have.
My husband has also stood firm for the reasons you cited above. Intellectually I understand where he is coming from, and on some levels emotionally. In this area, I am willing to let him preside valuing his perspective as an outside preserver. I also reserve the right to bring up any promptings I receive in that direction and ask him to receive the same prompting. Since I am already considered “elderly” in child-bearing years, we are likely to stop at 2 children.
Reflexzero wrote:
One additional comment for this one.There was an instance where a brother would not drive an older single sister home after a stake activity because he was worried about either somehow violating the law of chastity, or being thought to have done so in the four block car ride. This is not anecdotal, as it was a family member of mine who was the sister left behind. Obviously I found the story ridiculous in application of the spirit of the law, but you hear stories of a man refusing to ride elevators with a woman in the COB. Are we that scared of each other? I understand the need to protect people from being taken advantage of, but do we really feel that if we are alone for a minute it is going to result in some sexual escapade?
My dad relayed to me the other day something similar last month.
BACKGROUND: My parents have 1 car, and my mom had taken it to go visit family in other states. My dad lives in a small ward/large branch divided among 3 cities about 20 minutes or so from the church building. He is also the Ward Mission Leader.
EVENT:
He mentioned that he thought his bishop would give him grief for getting a ride to Ward Correlation (and church meetings) from our single R.S. President about his age because of the “appearance of evil”. This is in one of the Rust Belt states, far into the “mission field”. I was surprised, and then pointed out that this was a prime example of the R.S. sister “sustaining” the missionary efforts of the branch by giving him a ride.
Old Timer wrote:
I like the current stance – which I sum up as, “Have how ever many you can handle – whether that’s one or fifteen. Just don’t limit yourself for purely selfish reasons.”
I agree with this. I am the oldest of 9. Both of my parents were only children, so our large family was overwhelming regularly. I wound up being a quasi-parent at around 15 or so to help out. I always figured on around 6… but waited to marry until I was 26. 2 years in, and we felt nudged to start our family… the cards played out that I went to work and my husband stayed at home with our daughter. 2-3 years past that, and I didn’t feel we were done. When our daughter was 4, my husband started to realize we might not be done. Now we have a 1 year old baby, and my husband is quite sure we are done. I came closer to death than anyone would like delivering our last baby, so I understand his position. I am pretty ambivalent about being done.
For me, I see children in the same light as the parable of the talents. 1 of the men was given stewardship over 10, another only 5. I do not hear in the scripture any censure for those stewards who worked so hard to handle their responsibility. We hear a stern rebuke for the man with 1 talent who did nothing with it. Some of our families might be big with lots of kids and that might be their pathway. Other families are going to be smaller. I prefer to think that God will judge on what I did with my relationships within my family rather than the number of kids I had.
You lost me at: * Polygamy
* Prop 8 – how can we be Christian and care for others when color and orientation appear to matter?
* Women and Scripture – if God has always loved his daughters, why are there few examples, and the few conversations in the scriptures to women (talking to Emma for example) are muddled at best.
You found me at:
* My parent’s ward took in 7 of my siblings for a period of about 4 months with no strings attached over the Christmas holidays instead of letting them go into the foster care system. Not only that, but all the families involved coordinated a Christmas brunch for my parents and siblings so that we could see each other.
* In our reverse trek, we felt the Spirit guiding us through the selling of our house, crossing the plains, helping us find a job, a branch, and a house. The entire search was hot/cold – in that we felt the Spirit guiding us closer to our eventual branch, the timing of selling the house and finding the job.
* Our current branch family. We have an adopted grandma to our children because she needed more grandkids – and she is their grandmother. Another couple have taken us under their wing and helped us to be better parents.
* In my grief over losing a baby, there were others there to give me a hug as needed, but I felt sustained by and strength that was not my own that I drew on as needed.
