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Ray, I think there is DNA evidence that he did have sex with many of these women. In addition, just because DNA evidence doesn’t exist with some of the women does not mean that he did not have sex with them. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Do you really believe Ray that he just had sex with some of them but not the others after marrying these women in secret? Joseph Smith just wanted to take care of them, is that right? You can take care of women and others without marrying them. It’s called being a Christian!
Also Ray, I don’t believe it is just the former member of my Stake Presidency who is interested in the prospect of Polygamy coming back. Why is the rape of 14 year old girls accepted in that State of Utah in the first place? FYI-Marrying and having sex with 14 year old girls is rape because 14 year old girls can’t legally consent to sex in the first place with an adult and that is exactly what groups like the FLDS and others do. In my state and 48 others, I strongly believe that there would be mass protests and outrage if this occurred so publicly.
It took Warren Jeffs trying to pull the same kind of illegal and disgusting behavior in Texas that finally stopped him. The fact of the matter is that there is a culture of elected representatives in Utah that allow this kind of crap to continue. It gives Utah and the LDS church a bad image.
Another reason I think men who are members of the LDS church would like polygamy to come back besides sexual reasons is that I never hear anyone at church speak in outrage with what is occurring to these young girls in Utah. If the Church is so interested in morals and the sanctity of marriage, why not speak out about what is occurring in their own back yard with maybe 1/10th of the veracity they do with gay marriage? Isn’t raping a 14 year old girl way worse than two gay guys hooking up? Gay marriage doesn’t impact the Church and its image like the FLDS and other groups do. Why remain so quite on this subject?
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Joseph gets painted incorrectly all the time. No matter how someone feels about polygamy, polyandry, etc., it’s important to be as accurate as possible when talking about it and Joseph’s involvement.
I agree Ray 100 percent! However, It was not normal in Joseph Smith’s day for grown married men to be married to 14 year old girls and other multiple teenage girls. Period! I don’t know of any other famous Americans who were alive in Joseph Smith’s time or even earlier who married multiple teenagers. George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, James Madison and John Adams etc.. were not married to 14 year old girls or multiple partners. Even in that time, it would have been scandalous!
In addition Ray, you need to look at the whole picture. You are leaving out that Joseph Smith just didn’t marry multiple partners and teenage girls, but he married women in many cases who were already married to other men in secret. Joseph Smith didn’t even tell his other wives about the marriages. I am on my tip toes regarding this subject because I don’t want to damage your faith in Joseph Smith, so I am leaving a great deal out of my opinion.
Ray, have you ever read any of Emma Smith’s diaries or other writings regarding her husband from this time period? They are heartbreaking, disturbing and scary to put it mildly. I can’t condone or defend his behavior.
I am someone who believes that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and put on Earth to restore the Priesthood. However, I will never defend, condone or white wash his behavior. Prophets are not Gods and they can make mistakes!
I really respect and admire you Ray! I really do. It takes a tough and strong man to put yourself out in LDS culture like you have. I am just sort of shocked right now with what I have read. I need to step back and away from my computer right now.
Exactly 3 weeks ago, I heard a former member of my Stake Presidency get up in a packed room and talk about the possibility of polygamy coming back into vogue. To protect my identity and the rules of this site, I am not mentioning the individuals name or the stake, but I felt disgusted with him.
Old-Timer wrote:Interestingly, today’s lesson in Priesthood (combined Elders and High Priests) was about tithing – and one of the Bishopric counselors mentioned the idea of being behind in tithing and how there is no need to “make it up” in order to be baptized or attend the temple.
Wouldn’t having to “catch up” on tithing in addition to paying tithing currently just put members into a perpetual state of debt? Sounds like tithing would become like credit card debt in which some people never pull themselves out from under.
Recently I have heard quite a few discussions at Church and at Church activities about Polygamy being made legal, especially after the recent Gay Marriage Court victories. Personally, I believe many of my “Brothers” want polygamy to be made legal. I am scared to think what they would want the acceptable age of marriage for girls to be. I strongly think that many of these men, particularly the TBM type would want to mimic Joseph Smith’s behavior in regards to the age. No other group of people that I socialize or work with are even bringing up the topic of Polygamy being made legal. This is just my experience.
Just my 2 cents! 1. I think you are being way too hard on yourself!
2. I don’t think setting up anything with your bank account that is a “forget it and fix it deal” is a good idea.
3. I don’t believe God punishes people for tithing mistakes and/or not tithing, but the LDS Church will and possibly your Bishop too.
If God did punish people for not tithing, the only rich and happy people would be Mormons, IMHO.
4. I would personally just write out a check for the difference or I would just start paying tithing again from this point on.
5. I wouldn’t go to your Bishop unless you are willing to accept the possibility of some added drama being interjected into your life. It’s your choice.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Is it possible? I believe in a society that wouldn’t use various propaganda techniques to reinforce black and white or us versus them tribal thinking.
I don’t believe in a lot of black and white type thinking. In my opinion, there is a great deal of grey area.
Isn’t it ironic that at church there is so much ostracizing in the first place? What about not judging others? The constant judging of others who are not LDS or less “active” is one of the hard parts of church for me. As someone who grew up attending a Protestant sect, there was less judgment of others and more of an emphasis on yourself being Christ like. I really miss that. SilentDawning wrote:Some people don’t talk very well either — that’s why I have exit clauses ready in case the conversation tanks Half the time its because THEY are not comfortable.
I have also noticed that sometimes you have to make several hit and run attempts to talk to people before they trust you enough to talk. So don’t take it personally the first couple times if the conversation stalls.
Great advice!
Brown, don’t be too hard yourself! Socializing can be difficult sometimes. In many ways I can really relate to how you feel interacting with people at church. As a convert, I feel like people at church are so different than I am.
What works for me is that I keep a smile on my face, introduce myself to people, give a firm handshake, look people in the eyes and ask them questions. Don’t get discouraged if some people are not too friendly, just move on to the next group. Best of luck to you!
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:How do you deal with that?
I would read cwald’s story in our archived posts. It represents some of the worst of what can happen in our culture.
Thanks guys for the info! I will definitely read the archived posts.
Oregon looks pretty! Glad you are enjoying yourself. To be perfectly honest, I would not have the guts to use my real name and then take pictures of myself and post it on a site that people from church could then come up to me and give me an earful. I admire you!
How do you deal with that? Is that okay to ask?
SilentDawning wrote:AngryMormon wrote:I am sorry Silent Dawning that you are dealing with this! Hang tough, your situation will pass!
However, I see a tremendous opportunity here for you and your family. This is a great opportunity for your daughter to realize that life is not fair and you sometimes need to make the best out of a tough situation. In addition, your new job whatever it is could bring all kinds of great new things into your life.
Have you tried explaining to your daughter that if you possibly don’t move you will not be able to pay for things like clothing, food, education, YW camps and housing?
CWALD make some great points! Your 14 year old daughter is probably just scared about the prospect of change and giving you the cold shoulder is just her coping mechanism. It is part of a teenagers job description if you ask me.
I strongly feel that the most important thing is that you and your wife are on the same page.
yes, I explained all that to her. For the first time in my life, she gave me the silent treatment. We have had a wonderful relationship until now. I’m sure it will pass.
Sorry Silent Dawning.
