[Ann]

nibbler wrote:

That’s beside the point though. I think there are certain beliefs that serve as tribal boundaries that mostly tie back to agreeing with the correlated message, whatever it has evolved into in the present. How we reverence top leaders of the church is a part of that correlated message.

Step outside of the correlated belief, the thing that sets Mormons apart from others, and it seems natural for the in group to start viewing and treating people that believe differently as the out group. The beliefs define the boundaries.

Did anyone watch the Face to Face with Elder Cook? It was done to launch the “Saints” book. He and two church historians at Nauvoo answering YA questions. I often watch live events “with” my kids while texting each other our thoughts. It’s clear they belong in the out group. There was no boundary moving tonight to make a space for them.

The historian launched into the polygamy discussion with the unstated assumption – of course it was commanded by God himself.

Same for First Vision. Of course these versions all combine to make perfect sense. We should be rejoicing. There’s no room for the out group kid who’s struggling because of her belief that the handwritten account is closest to the truth. If she doesn’t think God and Christ appeared, it’s best for her to stay quiet.

The Face to Face is already on the church website, if anyone wants to watch. There’s a beautifully sung duet at the beginning.

[Ann]

nibbler wrote:

I wonder if Oaks’ approach (recognizing that there’s probably something wrong but deciding to be obedient to authority and remaining hopeful/patient) will work for rising generations? I suppose it has to, what other alternative is there? Or maybe that’s the expectation of the members but rather than do that, members opt to leave?

I’m tempted to say that it certainly isn’t going to work, but I’d be extrapolating from my own children to the whole generation.

[Ann]

Heber13 wrote:

God works in mysterious ways. So we tell ourselves, when we don’t understand why past prophets said what they said. Or we don’t want to just accept prophets and church policies were wrong.

Again, I would have thought, given what he said about his time in the midwest and east struggling with the ban and rejecting all the folklore about it…I would have thought he would welcome the new stance in the essay. I am sad and surprised to hear him doubling down. I saw at least one black Mormon blogger in tears.

[Ann]

SamBee wrote:

Ann wrote:

I just listened to clips from Oaks’ talk. I’m amazed. He flat out said the ban was God’s command. What the heck?!?

Mormonism has this weird conundrum… officially we follow the current president’s counsel over the previous ones, but we still can’t admit some of previous ones might have been wrong.

The strongly worded priesthood essay didn’t give cover for him to say the ban was man-made? I don’t get it. Like you say, weird. And discouraging.

[Ann]

I just listened to clips from Oaks’ talk. I’m amazed. He flat out said the ban was God’s command. What the heck?!?

I know this thread wasn’t in active topics, so I don’t expect more conversation. I just had to add my disbelief. Awhile ago I read (or heard, I can’t remember) Oaks recounting his joy and emotion upon getting the call that the ban was lifted. I loved the picture of it in my own mind. He said he and his sons we working on something at their cabin when the call came. He said he sat down on a pile of dirt and wept for joy.

So, all of that, and he stuns me with this.

[Ann]

Quote:

I’m a free bird….

This is it for me. I am lonely, but feeling free for the first time is so valuable to me that I “take” everything that accompanies it.

I’m glad you found this site. You’ll get lots of good advice.

[Ann]

On Own Now wrote:

The church is seeking input, including original songs. I have submitted the following, though it is to a common tune (as they used to do).

(sung to “If You Could Hie to Kolob”):

If you could high five Dieter, with a twinkling in his eye,

He’d then continue talking ’bout when he used to fly,

Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity

Find out the reason he is not in the First Presidency?

Did you really? :clap:

I didn’t even bother suggesting deleting Paise to the Man, but I found about 35-40 others that I hope are OBVIOUS candidates. “Lean on My Ample Arm” and other wastes of space.

I really hope they get good submissions. I hope they pile all other churches’ hymnals on the table and look for SATB gems.

Any chance “I Believe in Christ” will get shortened? I just groan when its turn comes around.

I also hope that they don’t try to do too much coordinating with that big General Conference index in the sky. We need more general hymns of praise and gratitude. That’s what opening hymns are supposed to be. They’re not necessarily matchy-matchy with the theme for the talks.

I put in a strong pitch for more Easter hymns. I’ll probably go back for round two as all my peeves and long-suppressed hopes bubble to the surface. I honestly thought we’d never get a new hymnal. I was bracing myself for self-playing pianos programmed with 50 acceptable hymns.

I haven’t read his biography, but I get the impression that President Nelson is very musical. Maybe he’s been on the same wave-length with many of us.

[Ann]

Quote:

I know there are others like me, and that is comforting. And can I just say, we need a symbol of our nuance so we can find like-minded members? Like the tapir pins or something…

I started wearing a small cross. No one has asked me about it, and my husband is very down on the idea and sees it as a reminder of gruesome death. But it helps me focus. I’ve kind of hoped it would catch on, especially since a common complaint is that we don’t focus on Christ. And, man, is that truer than ever in Primary, where I am now. The kids have done a ton of matching games on the Quorum of 12, etc. Weeks go by without mention of Christ. Not even around Easter time. But I’m getting off topic.

[Ann]

Quote:

…how do I get over these stumbling blocks.

I have felt like I have been spiritually running in place for the last 3 years and haven’t gotten any where.

This is kind of trite, but once I stopped seeing stumbling blocks everywhere (and I believe you when you say your list is long!), and saw the blocks for what they really were – a way up and forward. I’m not afraid anymore of where they will take me. I have a personal assurance that God can be with me, that I’m not on his bad side for rejecting so much of the church’s narratives.

A really good book that talks about adult religious development is Navigating a Mormon Faith Crisis by Thomas Wirthlin McConkie. Last I looked it was still to edgy for Deseret Book, but you can get it on Amazon. He left the church as a teenager and roamed far and wide until he came back, at least in some respects.

[Ann]

I think I got this from a Greg Prince interview and it has stuck with me. He said that instead of a “let them obey” attitude towards the membership, McKay’s was “let them grow.”

[Ann]

I went visiting teaching today because we haven’t gotten training yet. I think I’m going to like ministering because of (I assume?) less reporting hassle and hard deadlines, but I was just struck today by the beauty of it all. That I could be there as she opened up and gave us a window into her inner life.

[Ann]

longbottom wrote:

It’s an entirely liberating concept to me to “own my own decisions”, and how I have felt about my new direction itself if a strong testimony-builder that there are more ways than one to grow close to God….

I agree. And it was so strange to have the distinct impression and comfort of God waiting with open arms. Almost a, “finally, you’re here. Let’s see what’s next for you….”

[Ann]

If I could start fresh with no bad effect on kith and kin, would I choose this church? I’m almost afraid to say aloud that my answer is “no.” Not with things as they are now. It’s the sad but honest truth, so I chose option 2.

[Ann]

Ilovechrist77 wrote:

Even after having a faith transition, I can still say YES!

I know what you mean, I think. For me it’s especially after my faith transition.

[Ann]

Quote:

I now have a few confidants (not my wife) that I can share and be 100% authentic with. One day I hope I can do this with my wife, but we have a ways to go. What has literally SAVED me, and helped me try to navigate to some form of equilibrium are those confidants.

You’re really fortunate, but I can tell you already know that Until you can speak as freely as you’d like with your wife, I hope being here helps.

[Author]

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