[Ann]

Roy wrote:

Old Timer wrote:

Co-dependent is the official doctrine.

I believe that this is difficult because we do not really seem to talk about it (for multiple reasons). Is heavenly marriage a marriage of co-equals? I think that we would like to say yes but I have trouble seeing how that could be the case for 3 principle reasons:

1st is Heavenly Mother. Is she co-equal with HF? What does she do?

2nd is Polygamy. Polygamy is prima facie unequal. My understanding of how this works in exaltation is that the husband receives power and glory based on his governing and the size of his governed. His wives are part of his governed and receive reflected glory from him. Therefore there is a reciprocal (co-dependent?) relationship but it is not co-equal. It is like the president deriving his power from the citizenship but a citizen not being co-equal with the president. We are told not to speculate weather or not polygamy is a requirement for exaltation and there have been church teachings going both ways on this point. However the theology of polygamy seems much more developed than our current “get married in the temple and somehow that makes you into a God/Goddess in the afterlife” mentality. If the polygamy theology is wrong we seem to be reluctant to say so or to come up with a compelling replacement theology.

We could fill the thread with lots of crazy quotes from leaders. Understandably, leaders don’t do that anymore, but not quoting them is not the same as disavowing/clarifying and setting a new course. So until they do, people are, imo, rightly suspicious that they just don’t want to.

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3rd is the temple ceremony. It is not co-equal and still has wording that indicates some of the governer/governed or presider/”presidee” relationship. I have written before that this is not just a Mormon phenomenon as the phrasing and concepts in question mirror pretty closely what Paul writes in Corinthians. However, the current LDS position of polygamy being divinely commanded and the temple ceremony being divinely revealed definitely add a unique Mormon twist to the whole thing.

But we have changed it in the past. I’m left with the sinking feeling again – maybe they don’t want to change it.

The more distance I get from this very hurtful issue, well…the less it hurts. If I didn’t have daughters I could put it in my rear-view mirror. But I’m stuck helping (to whatever extent I do at their ages) them navigate. And … I got nothin’. All the crazy quotes rattle around with no comment from anyone with power; the temple sits like a rock. Brian Hales recently did an interview where he doubled down on the connection between polygamy and sealing authority. (I.e., can’t disavow the former without canceling the latter. I couldn’t disagree more.)

I really don’t know what to think, or what to tell my girls.

[Ann]

This is the paragraph that stood out for me:

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Making it acceptable to decline in the same way as other churches in an increasingly secular world is to declare that all of the stuff about being the only true Church perfectly suited and prepared for the latter days and better than the rest is nonsense. It is totally deserting the ramparts, abandoning the battlefield, surrendering. We should be hoovering up the disillusioned multitudes fleeing the dead churches. We should be swamped by Millennials, not demoralised and scared by them – we have the gospel for the modern age and the Hubble universe. Our theology embraces the positive social action and community they crave AND the trillions of galaxies with their hundreds of billions of solar systems teeming with life. Every Stake boundary is full of millions of decent, tolerant, compassionate human beings who care about freedom and feeding the poor and not bullying people for their race or sexuality. People who will flock to the True Church if only they can be shown where to find it. This is the moment we have been preparing and working for – but apparently that party has been cancelled.

Lately I don’t look for what the church “needs to do.” I’m only on the lookout for ways to describe how I think and feel about it. And this gets to some of that. I picture my convert parents from the so-called dead churches attracted to a theology and community that seemed strong and agile, and here at the end of my mom’s life, the church seems to be struggling under the too-heavy weight of its long? – no, very short – history. We find ourselves pointing at the millennia-old churches to talk about why change is hard.

[Ann]

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…does this forum serve as a gateway…

I would say, No. It’s a way station, something with more calming and constructive connotations. It’s a friendly, understanding pew. Maybe it’s in the back, but it’s in the chapel.

Other sites are gateways, but I won’t name any.

[Ann]

Morning light always helps.

I need to say that I felt oxygen-starved last night, but not angry or disdainful. We’re all good people. But there are lots of big feet stepping on my hose unaware.Everything went according to unwritten LDS norms. It was like the funeral (literally, I guess, on Good Friday) with beautiful, personal remembrances and tributes … and then the presiding priesthood holder gets up and gives a missionary discussion. A minute in, and I can’t wait for it to be over.

Since faith crisis onset music’s been a refuge – a way to feel the spirit, a way to contribute and influence, a way to worship, love, fellowship. I can’t in good conscience stop giving back something that’s given me so much.

I don’t know what to do, but things will unfold. And life is good!

[Ann]

On Own Now wrote:

I also have an experience from my childhood that might be worth something. When I was a young man (11?), my mom met an elderly woman at the hospital where my mom was working. This woman was in her mid-80’s, was a widow, an immigrant from Hungary, and had no family living close by. She wasn’t a member of the Church. My mom helped her with whatever she was trying to do at the hospital, then asked if she could stop by with some treats or a meal or something. It started a long string of visits over the years, in which I accompanied my parents. We would just sit and talk for an hour with this lonely woman. I always, always, got some homemade treats of some kind. I still remember her gratitude, kindness, and her gnarled, arthritic hands. I also remember the kindness of my busy parents (who both worked) to take the time to do this. It was a great and memorable family experience.

My daughter would complain (a lot) about how I smelled when I came home from a certain woman’s house. And she really didn’t like being along for the visit. But fifteen or so years down the road she felt thankful to have done it. It hit her strongly one day while away at college. I’m not saying to disregard your son now to teach him a lesson, but just saying the delay is long sometimes.

[Ann]

I think one weakness is that it supposes a God or Father/Son who care more about establishing a church than spreading a gospel of Golden Rule love.

(I’m completely on board for inspired humans still feeling their way.)

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How much collateral damage is God willing to tolerate before he gives them guidance on this point?

I think it’s interesting that we tend to accept a God the Father who breaks eggs, or “lets” us break eggs, to make the omelet. (Sorry, better words are not coming to me right now.) But we usually don’t talk about Jesus being the moving force behind something like polygamy. We don’t suggest a perfect, loving Christ, who showed unusual regard for women, saying, This is going to be heartbreak and disaster for quite a few, but if that’s your best idea to get this done…. Because we portray Christ as The One who cares about the one.

[Ann]

LookingHard wrote:

hawkgrrrl wrote:

And then today, the Des News sulkily posted this steaming pile: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865677637/How-BYU7s-Honor-Code-may-help-prevent-sexual-assaults.html

Some people simply don’t get it.

Agreed – they don’t get it. They do have one valid point in that at BYU each weekend isn’t full of beer bashes and binge drinking – which can be a risk factor in assaults. I would assume having a beer or two greatly increases sexual assault, certainly not as much getting smashed.

And I really wish the honor code was moved back to being a student-led initiative where it started instead of McCarthy style policy it has turned into once Ernie Wilkinson weaponized it.

Weird article.

This is now about how BYU should be adivising other schools on their policies?

Or it’s news that alcohol contributes to sexual assault?

[Ann]

LookingHard wrote:

Ann wrote:

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/136-47-51.pdf

A recent Mormon Matters podcast links to this Sunstone article about teaching.

This was good. I was actually about to not listen to it as I just wasn’t in the mood. I listened to it and found there were a few good pointers on how to pay homage to the lesson manual, but at the same time, ask better questions that really encourage discussion.

Paying homage to the lesson manual in a way that makes the whole class comfortable = an art.

I haven’t listened to the MormonMatters podcast yet, just read the Sunstone article. I liked:

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I’m a strict adherent to the Thirteenth Article of Faith, especially the part that says, “if there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.” I don’t follow this rule because I’m righteous. I follow it purely out of a survival instinct. It is paramount to my spiritual survival that I am shown, on a regular basis, that the world is a much larger place than I had originally thought.

[Ann]

I love this time of year, the way Easter and Passover move in synch with each other.

[Ann]

SamBee wrote:

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The other problem I see is that the community aspect is highly conditional on you full TR status, not saying “no” to anything they want you to do, marital status, sexual orientation….

Well I’ve said no and don’t hold a current TR but still feel part of it. I am not gay but am unmarried.

My daughter is struggling, and I’m realizing it’s hard to discuss this community idea. She’ll say, It’s not a community when you don’t feel part of it. Well, true. There doesn’t seem to be anything to say in response, so I just wait to see what the next wave brings.

[Ann]

Sheldon wrote:

He is now deciding whether he wants to even be a member of a church “that was built on lies.”

Obviously what he needs most are the love, empathy, and patience of the people closest to him. But when he’s up for talking about a statement like above, I think it would be interesting to focus on “built” instead of “lies.” Does he think he will find another church that wasn’t built? By terribly flawed humans. What are the implications of that?

I’m still a hair’s breadth away from deciding that I simply want a church with a different builder, but zooming out and looking at all organized religion with the same critical eye I’ve been casting on Mormonism has been very helpful. And sometimes it’s so interesting that I forget to feel panicked and pressured about my own situation.

[Ann]

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/136-47-51.pdf

A recent Mormon Matters podcast links to this Sunstone article about teaching.

[Ann]

I clicked not knowing what I might have to agree to NEVER do. Thanks for making it so easy!

This is nuts. Either just distance yourself:

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So, it’s time to take matters into my own hands, in the most professional, kind, and option-preserving manner possible. I’ve had it with this!!

Or, if you’re curious, and I know I am, find out what on earth is going on here. (It could even be something organic like a tumor.) Maybe he’s under his own false impression of what his duties are.

[Ann]

I was drawn to this because of the word “discussion” – human voices. I just read “The Promise,” by C. Potok. One of the most memorable scenes is of a diametrically opposed Jewish teacher demanding that he and the protagonist speak to each other. Because that’s when their mutual love of Torah is evident. That’s when they’ll put down their weapons and listen. The ideas that were so threatening in a book were less so coming right out of his student’s mouth.

We need to discuss for real in GD.

[Ann]

NotYourMollyMormon wrote:

It has been a rough couple of weeks

Sorry, and do whatever you need to do in the wake of the trouble. There’s no rush.

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I didn’t realize that until this morning when I was preparing my lesson for Sunday School and the topic was about Joseph Smith. I could not, in good conscious, teach that class because for the first time I could admit that I did not have a testimony of Joseph Smith (still sorting those particular thoughts in my head) and I knew in my heart that I wasn’t feeling it. Then I started questioning everything else and I decided to take a mini break from church.

I’ve decided that I’m just not built to “have a testimony” of Joseph Smith,

(or any other mortal), or even to have great affection and admiration for him. But I love a multitude of people who do. That’s about as close as I can get. I was asked not long ago to play for stake conference, given choices for which sessions, and said I’d prefer X. But it was a friend/acquaintance who asked and I went ahead and said that I didn’t want to play “Praise to the Man.” That’s all I said. I hope these little moments are carving out my place in Mormondom. I was upset to see the cover of the April (Easter month, right???) 2017 New Era – huge picture of Joseph Smith with the caption, “Testify of the Restoration.” But I said something to my husband; anger diffused. Being myself helps me stay.

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So I said “hey mom, i love you but I don’t want to talk about that. I am taking a little break from church to figure some things out so for now lets talk about other things”

You did good. :thumbup:

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I called her out and said ” I find it really funny that you just spent almost an hour attacking my faith, my mind, and my character and yet you never asked “hey what’s going on, I am sorry you are feeling that way” or whatever.

And when she goes all crazy, you have no choice but to do this.

Try to spend whatever quality time you can with her and let the rest go. Out of curiosity, is this typical behavior for her? Also wondering her approximate age and stage of life.

Good luck, and I hope you find support here.

[Author]

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