[Antiquarian]

I would like to apologize if I hurt anyones feelings over what I inarticulately said.

I honestly feel that Patriarchy hurts men as well as women. I do understand that LDS is the only Christian group that knows of a Heavenly Mother. I just wish we actually talked about Her insted of hiding behind a tradition of “oh, She’s too important”. Is She more important that Heavenly Father? Can’t we learn of them both? I just wish we had lessons in Church about Her and Her role in our lives.

What I meant to say about the revelations coming is in my life time. As to the husband wife relationship I do not like that we must “submit” that is to say yield to a perceived “superior authority” or to refer to someone else in our relationship to our HP. I use to strong an image, but what came to mind was Johnny Lingo and my worth being in cows and that I only am beautiful after I’m married. My DH isn’t LDS and when I’ve told him about the Temple and the wording of this covenant he told me that he believes it is wrong and that God wouldn’t make a spouse submit spiritually to another at all. Eve was a help meet and equal and as an outsider this is something my DH says the LDS lacks. Women have their spot and arn’t allowed out of it.

I think I cleared it up. It really is something that is painful to me and I’m really sorry for venting in an inappropriate manner. 😳

[Antiquarian]

The devil didn’t make you do it. The devil can’t make you do anything. 🙄 In the immortal words of Calvin and Hobbs “humans don’t need any help” *laugh*

I can see that his talking with Sis could hurt and honestly all I can think to say is tell him that it hurt you. Let him know how much you love him and how you hope you come first in his life. That you are trying to work through things, to gain understanding. This isn’t bad at all. Knowladge and understanding are of God “the glory of God is intelligance”.

In her autobiography Sue Monk Kidd talks about the struggles in a marriage when one partner is on a spiritual journy and the other doesn’t get it or doesn’t support it. Honestly it doesn’t always work out. I’ve only looked into the history a tinny bit, but I realize that this can be hard for others. For me I have come to the understanding that the Church and its governing athorities are not perfect. The Church has and will always change to help us change into better people. I wouldn’t just toss a kind of blame off on Satan, but perhaps more on the foibles of Man.

Ask for support from your Spouse and family. let them know that you are tying to grow spiritually and this is how you and our HPs are refining you. And know that you are not alone in your journey.

[Antiquarian]

There is so much I want to say, but I need to go set up for my daughter’s 1st birthday.

If you haven’t read “Dance of the Dissident Daughter” you should. it expresses things SO much better than I.

I am not satisfide at all with how women are treated in the church nor their perceived place in things. I am NOT an 8 cow woman to be tamed by a man and valued only for the livestock I can bring in. I am not the first to sin and the second to be saved. I am like Mary Magdalene. Whom Christ loved above all others, whom he took time out of the Atonement to comfort! I am a Goddess in embryo and I wish the Church would teach that. I wish that the Church would teach about Heavenly Mother and her role so that women can realize that they are a jewel beyond price not a servant to hierarchy. I HATE the YW motto that states “I am a daughter of a Heavenly Father . . . ” it SHOULD read “I an a daughter of Heavenly Parents . . .” WHAT ARE WE TEACHING THEM?! I only have worth if I am connected to a man?

I feel that women have been systematically stripped of their roles and place in the Lord’s church, I know the Lord and our Heavenly Parents weep at what has been done to their daughters, and that dogma of misogynistic dinosaurs perpetuates this oppression. I do not think that the average male member is aware of this, but I think it is perpetuated none the less through handbooks and manuals and “traditions”. And sadly thought women who do not realize that there is more/better for them. I feel it is only a matter of time before women will have a greater role in the Temple and in the Church administration. I think it will take a new kind of GA to fix things that I think happened because of BY and Kimball. We need men who were raised by strong post-feminist movement women, men who do not like to see women subservient and who understand that are NOT separate but equal to the Lord or our HP. We are just equal. When I’ve talked to my DH about this he said, “You must be feeling the same way the Blacks did before receiving the Priesthood. You have to wait for the majority of members to grow up spiritually about it”

I strongly beleave that women have their own Priestesshood that does not require the laying on of hands to receive nor to use in proper order. It is ours as a birth-right. I feel that we can bless others by the laying on of hands for many things. However, I do recognize that the Priesthood is the ruling athority in the administration of the Church – as long as that administration is not unrighteous dominion. There are days I have my doubts.

Women were Prophetesses throughout history; even in Christ’s day. Women are the key to heaven – They are the final administers of the ordinance of having your calling and election made sure. WE hold the great power of allowing men to enter heaven with us. I love this because it shows that women ARE important.

I have so much more to say, but know only that the place women have been put in by the traditions of the Church is one reason I am on this board. It is the root of my current Spiritual Journey. I want to know my Heavenly Mother and the power that She holds. I want to know what She does for us. I want to know Her purpose so that I can know mine. I want the Church to stop defining divinity as solely the realm of Man. especially when we KNOW it is not! This displacement of womanhood is a spiritual wound that will not heal and as I raise my daughter I see so much I want for her and much of it can’t happen in a church like the LDS is now. I will not raise her nor will my DH to value herself though relationships to men. I will not raise her to submit to her husband as an animal submits to an owner – which is the truth of it currently. I want the blessings of Heaven for her, but not at the cost of her self-worth in this life.

I cry often over this. I feel that the Church has betrayed me and generations of women. I wish daily for a revelation to make things right, but know that it wont come. I trust the Lord, but not the men of the Church.

[Antiquarian]

I would like to add a clarification. My friend who had the “false Doct.” charge is a professor at a local university and has been for years. She was also on the RS presidency at the time this happened. She does her lessons well in advance and can keep a class on topic with ease. She had chosen to focus on one principle within the lesson assigned for that Sunday and to let the sisters express themselves and their thoughts. “Come let us reason together” not read together.

I loved teaching the Teacher Training course. I’m glad that the church started it. I also think it would be great to have a consultant in the ward who works with the teachers currently serving. When they they have others just read from the manual for 45 min I want to put my head through a wall. I could have just read the lesson on my own in less time and gotten the same out of it.

[Antiquarian]

The pamphlet IS NOT scripture. These are guidelines/ suggestions; albeit inspired one, BUT they are not covenants. I don’t think God is so shallow as to send someone to hell for dating at 14 or for having more than one ear-ring per ear. Stupid members forced these Pharisean rules because they made poor choices. Your daughter is NOT making poor choices.

If they (the two kids) use their wisdom and reason instead of blindly following than they are doing fine. They are learning to make choices and to be good. They are being better than those who hold to the pamphlet for no other reason than it was church issued. Their dating isn’t going to keep them out of Heaven – the opposite actually. Dating and learning to control physicality is right and good NOT evil. You sound very involved in her life and showing a little trust will help her be good. She won’t want to disappoint you.

Have you talked to the boys parents? if they are okay with it and you are okay with it than the rest should butt out. If they do not than perhaps you should say something to the bishop about members interfering with your role as a parent. I think that the 10 commandments out weigh the pamphlet and that one has “honor thy father and thy mother.” Which your daughter and this boy are doing. Some people mature before their actual age and some are 40 year old teens. YOU are the Parents and YOU have final say.

I hate to say it, but perhaps a confrontation is needed. These others who are being hurtful are NOT being Christlike. HE does not hurt us, say derogatory things, etc. Heck His mother was about 12 years old when she had him…and how old is HF? JS was 12 when he went to the grove and met HF and Jesus. It’s not the age it’s the maturity of the mind.

I’m not trying to justify, but if someone did this to my daughter and her boyfriend who may not be a full and exclusive boyfriend I’d get medieval and I’d do it publicly because THEY are interfering with my God given right and responsibility to teach and raise my child. If they are doing/saying hurtful things for this what else are they saying/doing that is hurtful to a your daughter?

My DH just said that he would confront the agitators and say, “I’m sorry in what way did I indicate that your opinion mattered?” Support your daughter, that will have a better return in the end than caving to the Stepford Mormons. If her father is around perhaps have him help with this. He is her Priesthood authority and if he’s okay with it than the debate (that shouldn’t never have happened) is over.

I would also suggest inviting him over for dinner with your family to show support of his “dating” you daughter… ask him over publicly at church!

[Antiquarian]

Yes, we are that stupid. *laugh*

I agree about the Suits ruining things with the new manuals. I have heard women from every age group complain. I my mission I used to say how wonderful it was the the women had there own class with its own manual that helped us live the gospel from a woman’s perspective. I think the choice was made to do away with this for money reasons and with NO thought to the welfare of the women. It was cheeper to create one book in bulk for all adults than to have people create a curriculum that had more spiritual meat in it. It’s turning us into Stepford Mormons. I even had a friend who was denounced as teaching false doctrine for not sticking to the lesson in RS one Sunday. The Gospel has been “dumbed down” instead of expecting the member to rise up. I’ll be honest I haven’t attend RS since there were 4 lessons in a row about male priesthood authority over everything, but NOTHING about women and our roles. I don’t like being taught I’m worthless and pointless. 👿

[Antiquarian]

I’m so glad this had NOTHING to do with those books every teen is reading or I was going to have to get Medieval on the Board!

Pema Chordon is a great read about these kinds of topic (balance of light and dark or not letting things take control and of letting go) – wisdom of no escape and when things fall apart are my favorites.

[Antiquarian]

I loved this book!

I also enjoyed the Gospel of Judas that was recently published. These scholarly works about scripture reminded me that the article of faith states “as far as it is translated correctly” and that the Bible was written hundreds of years after the facts by men who KNEW the world was flat. *laugh* we have so much to learn. 🙄

[Antiquarian]

It’s long I’m sorry, but this is something I’ve thought a lot about.

:geek: I do not think that what we are talking about here is a question of obedience. I think it is a question of personality and respect. A question often asked is “are you a spirit of the law or a letter of it?”

Another way to put this comes from a GA; I’m sorry but I can’t remember of it was Maxwell or Holland. It was related to me by a best friend. She heard it first hand – over 10 years ago. The GA said that there are two kinds of members. The Iron-rodders and the liahonas. They are both good members, but they live the gospel differently.

The IR’s do just as the song states, they hold to the rod. They do not want to look beyond the path and the rod, the Gospel; they don’t see a need. They are meticulous in their step along the path. They fear that if it isn’t just right the Lord won’t approve. They like rules and mandates (exactly how many ear-rings they can wear and still be “good” or don’t stray from the manual in RS cuz that’s “bad”.) They are also often numbers and checklist people. “These are the exact steps I have to take to get to Heaven”. To cling to the path is safe, it’s righteousness. They feel that to look up from the path is to invite apostasy. They are loyal to the Plan and trust that the Plan will get them to Heaven. They feel that to ask questions is to doubt the Plan and therefore the Lord and therefore our Heavenly Parents. It’s very black & white to them. Unfortunately this means that if they leave the church they feel deceived and will likely not come back. Or they may even turn into anti-Mormons desperate to prove to others that the logic is wrong. I have found that Mathematicians, IT/computer people, and Businessmen or lawyers tend to be IRs.

Liahonas are those who carry the Gospel with them as a compass as they explore their surroundings. Wanderers. As Gandalf said, “not all who wander are lost” and as JG Kimball once said, “I like the strait and narrow path. I try to cross it as often as possible”. These members are seekers. They want to see the whole picture and to ask about it – to learn. They don’t like “cuz the manual says so” as an answer. They need reasons: “the Lord did it this way for this reasons so that these other things will happen.” For them asking questions is essential to eternal progression. It’s a moral imperative. It’s proving to our Heavenly Parents that we care and that we want to understand. “Ask and ye shall receive.” They trust that no matter where they go the Lord will be with them and will lead them and that no mistake is fatal. They seek spirituality from lots of sources not just “church approved”. They fully believe that anything good comes of God and that to dismiss it for not being from the Church is to dismiss the greater work of the Lord. Liahonas don’t like to be confined. They see the out-of-Gospel rule as pointless – for example Tithing counts, while the number of ear-rings you have doesn’t get you into or keep you out of heaven. They often view the ear-ring rules as closer to Satan’s plan of conformity than of the Gospel of love and feel sorry for the GAs who are forced to make these rules because of the IRs. They believe that your heart is what matters not your exterior or the numbers/checklists. These members may wander in and out of activity and they tend to wander away when hurt by something/someone in the Church – because the Lord doesn’t hurt us he saves us. They seek comfort elsewhere for a time. If they leave more permanently they often don’t make a show of it – it’s not worth it. They also tend to see value in some of the Church’s teachings so they don’t diss it. These members tend to be artist, scientists, historians and Humanities people.

An example of these types is Adam and Eve. Adam was a keeper of all of Father’s Laws, while Eve reasoned that what ever that thing called Knowledge was it was worth the risk of death – whatever that was. I’m not saying that all men are IR and that all women are LH’s, but I think that when a woman is a LH she tends to be vilified by leadership. Another example is Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. JS was a seeker of answers while BY was a that’s-just-how-it-is-get-over-it kind of guy. There is a place and time for both types.

I hope that this helps people understand that there isn’t just one way to be a member and that we need to respect that.

The terrible reality is that when these two groups collide it gets ugly. IR tend to decry the LHs as wrong and on the verge of apostasy and the LHs see the IR as controllers or exercisers of unrighteous dominion. The horrible thing is that the Church is dominated by IR I think because LH go away. I hope that this changes in time. The need is for greater respect of these differences. It’s the Gospel that matters not the “look” or numbers – these are just tools. However, even in Christ’s day there were these problems – Paul and Barnabas – and human nature hasn’t changed that much.

[Author]

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