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The way I look at things is Grace before Works. Or as I have said flip the scripture around….instead of Faith with out works is dead, what is works without faith or works without Grace. IMHO we can do all the work we can possibly do, do all the temple ordinances, keep all the commandments, live perfectly, but with out the Grace of the Atonement it all means nothing.
I relate it to a story in my mind. I am walking and doing all I can do, everything, kept every covenant, done all I can do. But at some point I come to a stepping off place, a place I have no idea about, but to progress and make it to my destination I have to take the step. Even though I have prepared and won my place until this point, proven I was worthy to get to this point, this point is the last and final test. And I can either rest on my laurels and say I’ve done all this work and stay right there……or I can take that one step into the mysterious unknown have the Christ reach out catch my hand and finish leading me home.
We can only go so far with works, they will be rewarded, but the last steps, the final steps home we have to put our hand in Christ’s and let him take us there, only he can do that and only we can put our hand in his.
That’s the way I see it. It is also why I love the song Amazing Grace, because it is amazing. People think that the atonement is the milk of the gospel, when it is not, it is the meat, everything else are side dishes. We can feast on the side dishes and they can taste good, but the actual meat is the Atonement. And one does not have to be a member of the church to partake of the Atonement, it’s available to everyone.
Yup I live in a different cafeteria
No one expects the Utah inquistion. sorry, it’s the only thing I could think of when I read all of this.
I too have a family that gossips about me, drives me insane. If I had committed half the sins I have supposedly committed my life would be a lot more interesting. Mine started when I was a teenager, I was accused of smoking at a bar and some one had seen me there. Never have figured out who that some one was, never been to said bar and hadn’t tried smoking at that time. But I can say it did make me mad enough to say fine if I am such a sinner, then so be it. I guess for me it was I was told I was the bad seed for so long, that I finally said ok I’m the bad seed. Being called out on heresay or even because of questioning is not Christlike. I doubt that Christ would be handing out stones. He did not call out sinners, he called out hypocrits and those who lied to the sheep with false doctrine and those who charged to worship in the temple.
cwald wrote:I think the 14Fs are the single most dangerous and destructive doctrine ever taught in this religion and any others.
I hope it is not the spiritual poison that brings the lds church to its knees. Yes, it will make spiritual roadkill of many of us stayLDSers/NOMs, but hopefully it doesn’t entirely cripple the mainstream church and facilitate even more spiritual welfare.
Sad really.
Perhaps the 15 Fundamental should be…. Christs last commandment trumps all other 14 fundementals, period. The last commandment, As I have loved you, love one another. I have noticed that there are not any astriks by that saying except for those with tatoos, those who are gay, those who are divorced, those who question, those who (insert any other judgemental crapola here). To break down the last commandment he gave us would be to say, love as he loved, which to me means its more important to feed the poor (physically as well as spiritually) than to build a mall in SLC.
Meh SD I see where you are comming from. Maybe if the government taxed all the profit making undertakings churchs do in the name of charity things would change. Then people would have concrete evidence that their tithes and offerings were going to more than building temples, or missionary funds or helping the poor. I guess what I am saying is if a true transparent accounting was done and open to the public it would change either the way things were handled or change the view from the masses. I am not saying there is corruption or anything is illegal but if the Church is to claim that is of God, then I agree it needs to walk the walk and funding buildings non-church related isn’t walking the walk. Of course I have issues with spending so much money on the best of the best of the best for the temples (not saying there shouldn’t be temples) but come on do they need the highest end stuff, especailly when there are so many other needs in the world. I really have a hard time thinking Jesus/God would rather have the nicest lighting in his temples over feeding the poor.
You know sometimes I would love to stand up and say something along the lines that ‘I believe that through Christs Atonement I will be saved, that if not for the atonement everything all the prophets have done is useless and means nothing. And that I am glad I am at a place that I believe that, and the atonement doesn’t need the validation of the church being true to still be the atonement.’ then sit down. I am sure I would be escorted out of the building, out of the church and maybe off the planet. Being a LOTR fan this quote came to mind. Quote:The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he comes from, and if he really was evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home, and would he not rather have stayed there… in peace? War will make corpses of us all.
When I was younger I used to try things, had little inhabition, ect. But as I have gotten older and more tired, sometimes the payoff isn’t worth it for me. This said I did take up white water rafting last year and it’s frakin’ great. I’ve drank beer (I don’t like alcohol of any kind, figured if it was an aquired taste I’d just not drink anymore), smoked cigerettes, and tried various things in my life. However, at this point if someone I trust tells me something I tend to listen, if they tell me jumping off a bridge on a bungee cord sucks…I’m going to go with it sucks and not try it. Of course I’m older and it takes more than a few hours to recover, more like days. :eh: 
:crazy: Tom = Thomas S. Keith = Keith Olberman
Just throwing out right wing and left wing nuts and how the TBM should listen more to Tom and less to the political barkers.
Katzpur, you said
Quote:My daughter had so much promise
. As a person who has struggled a good deal like your daughter, just remind her she still has so much promise, when the time comes. She may not be reseptive to hearing it now, but she will at some point.
I think as a church, we place too much emphasis on all the going to hell as a scare tactic. Which may work well from some people, but for those of us who have committed serious sins, it doesn’t work. What works (and I guess this must be the tightest held secret ever) is that God loves us enough that he sent his son to fix those sins…via the Atonement. As the mother of a heavily tatooed son, I use to fret, pray, fast, read scriptures, pray, pray some more so my son wouldn’t be lost (mostly because I felt ashamed of him) Then during one prayer I was told, in no uncertain terms, a few things..first there were influences I knew nothing about in his life right at the moment, second God sent his Son and this was fixable and being tatooed was not the end of the world, and third to continue to pray for him but not to be overbearing but to love him, and forth he was Gods son before he was mine and God knew exactly what I was going through and he did not want my son lost a great deal more than I could comprehend, and last that God knew his heart and knew why he did what he did and he could be forgiven and to stop worrying about what others thought.
I think that’s the big issue, because we are told that if we are good parents our children won’t watch porn, won’t commit sexual sins…but when they do we become ashamed or embarrassed. When we, even if we do teach them correct principals, tend to think we failed, when in fact they are the ones who choose to commit the sin. And that God does understand….look at all the sins his children commit, we can learn from his example on how to parent a wayward kid.
That all said, I had a friend who said his 18 year old daughter was an LDS fathers dream, hasn’t dated, hasn’t even kissed anyone. He was proud of her. I can understand that, but my first thought was oh no…this poor girl, she will fall in love with the first guy to show her any attention, get married and probably divorced or live in a horrible marriage because she doesn’t know or hasn’t found out what she wants in a husband. I often wonder how this is affecting her self esteem…I can’t imagine it is good, I can see it just beyond the surface, up front she is smiles and nice, but in her eyes there is pain.
After reading this and thinking and visiting another board. I have to say, I’d rather see a tatooed pierced mini-skirt wearing goth kid in church than out partying because they didn’t feel welcome in church. Call me crazy but I bet Christ himself would agree. 😮 😯 The problem I have with the WoW is the eating suggestions are wrong for most overweight people, it recommends high fast burn carbs, not slow burn healthy carbs. But it was written when those grains weren’t processed to pulp and made into sugar breads. I don’t think a good deal of members or non-members eat healthy. And if we are going to get nit-picky about health…er Tea is a whole lot healthier than any sodas (diet non-caffienated included).
:shh: My opinion is if God is going to kick me out of heaven because I drink tea or eat a candy bar…then I might as well give up and go ahead and commit bigger sins. If I’m goin to hell, I might as well do it in style and make it worth it, and bad eating habits and drinking the wrong things seem pretty petty to me.
I like the legion idea..very interesting. However, I do somewhat believe in possession. Although I have never seen it, I have felt the presence of evil to the point I (and the person with me) left where we were at so fast we dropped the oil pan on her car getting away.
That all said, I am commit all my evil all by myself, don’t need no help, am pretty damn good at it all alone.
😈 I can commit spelling and grammar errors all by myself too, apparently.
Old-Timer wrote:I agree, cwald – but the message you want to hear is being said from “the top” more often now than it was a decade or more ago. I know that’s small comfort when you want to hear it more often, and I know it’s frustrating when the members at the local level aren’t accepting and acting on it, but it is being said more often now than it used to be.
Could it be even more blunt? Absolutely. Could it be said more often? Absolutely. Am I glad it’s being said more often than it used to be – in quite clear terms sometimes? Absolutely.
There is a REAL, STRONG irony when it’s the more “orthodox, traditional” members who are ignoring what the prophets and apostles are saying.I see the irony a good deal. In fact it’s one of the reasons I decided to go back to church. I am now refusing to let the orthodox traditionals push me out, because apparently, listening to most of the GA/Prophets is what I have been doing all along, even though I am a sinner and a liberal
Old-Timer wrote:They think it makes them look good, and they want to look good, since they want to be in the position of those to whom they are sending the money.
Sending money back is . . . should I really say it the way I feel it? . . . stupid. Period. Should NEVER happen. Period.
I agree about sending the money back. I have to wonder if the funding gets cut yearly if it’s not spent. I imagine that if the ward/stake had hungry people in it the church would rather the money be used to feed them than sent back…but I could be wrong.
As for the OP, being an INFP and reading here makes me wonder if my inactivity did have something to do with the way I felt about not being heard or shushed because of my radical thoughts. I can see how some of my thoughts would be considered not in line with the cutural aspects, but I can’t figure out how they would be out of line with the actual doctrines.
