[asha]

Heber13 wrote:

I don’t see the church imposing those views on others,

What about the whole debate surrounding prop 8? I thought members were encouraged to use their time and resources towards not allowing SSM to be legalized?

This was never about gay people being allowed to get married in the temple… after all, even heterosexual people can’t get married in the temple unless they are deemed worthy!

IMO, SSM is a political issue and the church needs to stay out of it. The church may have their definition of what a family is, but they have no right to impose that view on non-members. I know a few non-traditional (SSM) families here in Canada, and they are more loving/healthy/committed than many traditional heterosexual families. Members of the church need to recognize that there are legal implications here regarding spousal rights. My parents had two close friends, both men, who had lived together in a committed, monogamous relationship for over 30 years, but since it was before SSM was legal here, when one passed away his partner was not entitled to the other’s pension in the way that a spouse would be. There were other government benefits that worked this way as well. Imagine a committed couple who have been together for decades being told that one couldn’t visit the other in the hospital because they weren’t “family”. These are the sort of human rights implications that are involved in the fight for SSM.

Clearly the church sees this battle as a religious issue, when it is really a civil rights issue.

I absolutely think the church has every right to set certain standards for its own members, but in this case I don’t see how it is possible to argue that they are not trying to impose said standards on non-members when they are speaking out in support of a law that discriminates against a group that lives contrary to church standards.

Think of the example of the misogynistic law that was almost passed in Afghanistan that would have severely compromised the rights of women there. I can guarantee you that those who were trying to justify it were doing so on “religious” grounds.

This is a political/civil rights issue. The church should stay out of politics. Period.

[asha]

What hawk said.

Welcome, I look forward to learning more about you.

FWIW I am a strong believer in placing more importance on this life here and now, than on a theoretical afterlife. I know that goes somewhat against the whole “eternal perspective” that the church teaches is so important, but for me personally, this is the only life that I am absolutely certain of.

I also really agree with hawk, and in the past she has given me basically the same advice – to put your marriage first. I guess if I am really honest, that is the main reason I still attend church.

Anyway, welcome. I hope you find some answers in this forum.

[asha]

Welcome! Great intro. I have felt and experienced many of the same things as you.

kedmondson wrote:

Has anyone else experienced this sense of betrayal? If so, how do you deal with it?

Yes. I deal with it one day at a time.

It is an ongoing process wherein I force myself to focus on the good and ignore the bad. When I feel overwhelmed I pull back a bit. Today, for example I did not attend, and I had a wonderful day! However, I feel the church still has a place in my life since I am married to a TBM and have children that are being raised in the gospel.

Hang in there. I hope this forum helps… you are among friends here.

BTW, what ward were you baptized into? I think I would like to retire there.

[asha]

Kalola wrote:

It’s not harmless. It most certainly harms innocent men, women and children.

Let’s see … I just brought up the WoW in another post. One of the responses mentioned NO alcohol, NO tobacco, NO coffee, NO tea. But YES to pot?????

I absolutely agree that pot is just the sort of substance that the WoW is telling us to stay away from, and I also agree that it is a harmful narcotic. My point was that our laws are hypocritical when it comes to these substances since alcohol and tobacco are legal and pot is not. Perhaps it is just my opinion, but I really feel that pot is the least dangerous of the three (that does not mean that I think it is harmless).

[asha]

jmb275 wrote:

Baptism by a virgin for the remission of sins

That’s awesome! 😆

I guess that’s why so many baptisms are done by the missionaries.

[asha]

jmb275 wrote:

as long as you associate your membership in the church with belief in the doctrines etc. you will always have this problem

Yes, I think you are right… this is what I keep coming back too, and it is not at all constructive since it is clear to me that I will always have doctrinal “issues”.

jmb275 wrote:

Theologically you may not have much in common with the church right now. But how about socially? morally? culturally? You have already mentioned some moral issues you agree with.

This is true, and I am constantly reminding myself of this when I find myself at a low point. It isn’t always easy when the things you disagree with rear up their ugly head and refuse to let you ignore them (fast and testimony meeting is always particularly difficult for me!).

I have to say I am feeling much better this week. I am really enjoying teaching the yw, and so far have been able to teach them in a very meaningful and helpful way that never seems to conflict with any of my beliefs. I like to keep the lessons very general and Christ-focused, and stay away from church doctrine dealing with authority/temples etc. Today I taught a lesson on forgiveness, and it went so well. I loved that all the girls participated. All the girls shared their own experiences with the class, and I think they came away understanding the main point I was trying to get across: that being able to forgive has everything to do with you and not the person who has wronged you, and is certainly in no way contingent on first receiving an apology. It was such an open and honest discussion.

So, I came away from church feeling great (which is unusual on fast Sunday). Also, I am not planning on attending next Sunday since my parents (non-member) will be up visiting. I don’t feel the guilt I used to feel when I would decide to miss church, then when I would go I would resent the fact that I was missing an opportunity to visit with my parents. All of that is gone now. In addition, when I told my DH that I wanted to stay home next Sunday to visit with my folks, he said sure, he didn’t blame me, and he wouldn’t be at church either since he had to work. It just feels like there is so much less pressure on me now. It is such a relief.

Old-Timer wrote:

It is SO hard for many people to truly give up the idea that they know what’s best for everyone else.

Yes, Ray, I agree, and I am certainly one who is guilty of this as well. I guess my finger-pointing is based on the fact that history shows organized religion to be the worst of the worst where this is concerned… that so much evil and cruelty has been carried out under the guise of religion by people who truly felt that they knew what was best for everyone else. This is the part of the LDS church that scares me the most. The most glaring example is SSM. After all, it is one thing for the church to set certain standards for its own members who willingly signed up to follow them, but to work to impose those standards on the rest of society?? It is so troublesome to me. Issues like this make me want to sever all association with the church, and make me embarrassed to be a member.

[asha]

@Ray

thank you so much for your comments. I am definitely trying to take the approach of viewing church as a place to serve, not to be served. This week has been a hard one, but serving the yw seems to have helped to pull me out of my apathy to a certain extent.

@jmb

jmb275 wrote:

Do you have to have a testimony of any part of the church in order to stay? If so, why? I believe I see practical value in staying, independent of any of the various beliefs and doctrines in the church. Your touching story about the girls is exactly the reason. Plus being different in a group helps us grow.

In answer to your question, I think the church can be a good place to raise children, but it seems to require a certain amount of deprogramming – along the same lines that John Dehlin describes. I think you can raise great kids outside of the church, but in my own experience I think it is easier to do it within the church, maybe because of the community aspect of it. Do I have a testimony of any part of the church? I really don’t know. If that means do I see good in any part of the church, then I guess the answer is yes. I think the compassionate service and humanitarian aid aspects are wonderful, but at the same time I now pay my tithing to other charities that I think can do more with my money than the church. I think the clean living is great too, and I will certainly continue to follow the WoW to set a good example for my kids.

Already looking back at what I have written, it becomes clear that much of this revolves around my kids. This makes me seriously wonder if I will see any value in staying after they are grown and gone.

Disclaimer: going into atheistic territory… might offend some (sorry!)

I have said it before, that I think much of my problem with staying in the church long-term comes back to my lack of faith in general. I am an agnostic who tends to lean more towards atheism. I am not even sure anymore if I even “hope” there is a god, simply because I must admit that the idea of a divine dictator, even a benevolent one is distasteful to me. I guess most believers would see that as pride on my part, but I am just being honest. sigh. In light of this, you can see why a church that claims to be the only “true” church, and uses that claim to judge the rest of the world, is very unsettling and offensive to me. I tend to have a “live and let live” attitude towards others, and I am fed up with religion (not just LDS) thinking they have the right to tell people, even those who are not of their faith, how to live their lives. If everyone just accepted the fact that nobody really knows for sure what comes after this life, then maybe there would be less judging of others/ less oppression of others in the name of religion/ less guilt for things that are just natural/ less people blowing themselves up in the name of “god”/ less worldwide theocratic bullying in general.

End of rant.

You can certainly see why I think some parents might not want me teaching their kids.

[asha]

Wow, great thread. First of all, welcome swimordie, this is definitely the right forum for you. I am with you 100% on the issue of SSM… currently one of my biggest issues with the church.

Also, I too want to commend you for continuing to attend church despite your resignation. I am hoping to remain committed to attend on Sundays with my TBM husband and children even if I get to the point where I need to pull back from my activity in the church. Family unity and respect is so important. My DH has been unbelievably supportive, especially these last few weeks, so I have a desire to appease him by making an effort where the church is concerned.

Welcome!

[asha]

Welcome MH, I look forward to hearing more from you.

[asha]

Welcome FD. I have read some of your blog and find it very interesting. You will certainly fit right in on this forum! I look forward to hearing more from you. Welcome.

[asha]

swimordie wrote:

there are parents who may feel differently about their daughters being in your class if you disclosed your current state of thinking/testimony. I think there’s an ethical question to be asked. People choose organized religion for different reasons but there is a reasonable expectation in a rather orthodox organized religion that group think is valued and promoted.

Yes I think so too… some parents more than others would have a problem with me if they knew my beliefs. I actually think it would be unfair for me to push my own agenda on these kids when their parents are trying to raise them to be true-believing members, so I don’t. I am constantly watching what I say, and I bite my tongue a lot. However, every now and then I think it can be helpful to let them see things in a different light. For example, as part of the value experience we signed off together on Wednesday night, the girls had to go through and discuss the yw values and how they can apply them to their lives. Most of them are pretty straightforward, but we had an interesting conversation on the value Faith. I told them that in the church Faith is defined different ways by different people, but if you look in the scriptures it clearly describes it as NOT being a perfect knowledge of things. Then I asked them how they thought that related to peoples’ testimonies when they get up and say “I KNOW this church is true”. I was able to get hem to see that if you really “know” something, faith is no longer required, and that HF isn’t asking us to “know” the truthfulness of the gospel, but rather to have faith and hope in it. I have to say a few of the girls looked visibly relieved, and said that it made much better sense to them. I told them that whenever I hear someone saying that they “know” the church is true, I just substitute the words “I have faith the church is true”, because that is what they are really saying anyway.

I think it was a good discussion and helped them feel less insecure about their developing testimonies.

I think the area where I am more likely to get into to trouble in a doctrinal sense is in the teaching of Sunday lessons. They can be a real struggle for me. So far if there is something I don’t feel comfortable teaching, I skip over it. I don’t know how long it can last. I am sure there will be parents who will object to my slant on the lesson on temple marriage which was basically “there are far worse things that can happen in this world than marrying a non-member”.

At this point I think I am going to keep going for the girls’ sake until someone steps in and brings about my release. If at the very minimum I can help these girls to feel more confident and to trust their own judgement a little bit more, then I won’t have wasted my time.

[asha]

Thanks guys, really, I mean it. Your words helped a great deal. It is a relief to feel that I am not the only one to experience what I am going through. I really think this feeling of emptiness is worse than the anger. When I was angry and disgruntled I at least still felt motivated. I had such a thirst for new information, it was almost obsessive, but it definitely felt better than not caring at all.

Last night was a great pick-me-up. I had a beehive class activity at my house, and all seven girls attended. We spent the first half of the time at my kitchen table going through one of their personal progress value experiences (I am really pushing the personal progress program with them because I like teens to learn how to set and achieve goals), and then I brought out the potato chips and popcorn, and we played games and had fun. They had a blast, and so did I. Plus, when the parents came to pick them up they were thrilled to see that the girls had gotten a value experience signed off.

It seems like whenever I am ready to turn my back on the church altogether, I have a great experience like this. At the same time, I also recognize that this event took place at my house where I could control what was happening. I have a feeling that on Sunday I will be back to my former attitude.

I also still wonder if it is right for me to even be in this calling. These girls are trying to develop testimonies of their own. I can’t really be much of a role model for them in that regard. And yet, in a purely practical sense I am working so hard to not let them down. My daughter told me that I do way more for the girls and seem to put more time into the calling than her last beehive leader, and she said she was confused by this because she knows I don’t have a testimony. I told her I do it for them (the girls) because I really care about them, and because I feel a sense of responsibility for having accepted the calling to try to do my best in it. I guess at the very least if I ever end up leaving the church my daughter will know it isn’t because I was lazy or couldn’t handle what was being asked of me (there seems to be a prevalent view among many TBMs that people who leave are weak).

I’m so confused. I think maybe the best thing for me to do right now is to not do anything. In other words, I will just continue to stay the course, but I think I will take the advice of taking a break from church-associated reading material for a while. Too bad my book club is reading a book I have already read this month. Maybe Ray’s right and I need some brain candy… maybe some mindless fluff like Stephenie Meyer (sorry if this offends anyone… I actually rather enjoy her books, but you can’t argue that they are literary junk food…exactly what I might need right now!) I’m pretty sure my daughter has all her books.

Sorry for babbling… I am just typing away as I think this out.

[asha]

I also agree with Valoel and Ray.

It is easy to blame satan for very human mistakes thereby removing much of the responsibility from ourselves.

One example that comes to mind is a family in our ward that had a son who served an honourable mission and came home and was married in the temple. A couple of years later the couple divorced due to the husband’s addiction to cocaine, alcohol, and pornography. The wife felt angry and betrayed and soon after ended up leaving the church. She felt like she received very little sympathy from her inlaws (who were a prominent family in the ward), since they were always trying to defend their son. I had the occasion to hear from the husband’s mother myself about the issue, and soon understood the wife’s frustration… the mom kept on going on and on about how her son was so stalwart, and such a valiant soldier that he was an obvious target for satan. She was convinced that he had been singled out by satan’s forces because he was so incredibly righteous.

IMO the parents seemed unwilling to assign very much blame to their son for his actions. With this approach, how much hope is there that he would ever change? I feel like an idiot quoting Dr. Phil, but I think he has a point when he says: “You can’t change what you don’t own.” I think it is too easy to just blame satan for our bad choices… I really don’t think he has that much control (if he even exists!). I am really sick of everything getting blamed on “the forces of darkness”… what is the point of anything if we really have that little freedom over our choices and actions? It annoys me on a more personal level as well to think that as I gradually pull back from the church in an effort to find a level of activity that works for me, there will undoubtably be those who will think I am being influenced by satan.

LaLaLove wrote:

When I hear people in Church saying Satan is leading people astray I honestly can’t help but think they are idiots.-Sorry just being real.

It is a huge generalization! People get lead astray for multiple reasons ( YES EVEN Church history, Church Culture are real reasons – But we don’t see people connecting the Church with Satan! )..I believe maybe some members are too lazy or afraid to step up and actually try to understand why people step away or become disaffected – Why would they? – When all they need to do is blame Satan and retreat.

I am with you on this one LaLa.

[asha]

jmb275 wrote:

I don’t believe anyone should put their full trust, as an adult, in any organization run by humans. It’s simply too dangerous.

Ditto.

[asha]

Everything I have to say has been said by others now, but I still wanted the chance to say “welcome musicman”, and I hope to hear more from you as your story unfolds.

I particularly liked Ray’s advice,

Old-Timer wrote:

mr. musicman wrote: “My whole life I’ve been taught that embracing the gospel as taught/run by the church is the same thing as having a good relationship with God.”

I have little time right now, but therein lies the heart of the issue, imo. Embracing the Gospel, embracing the Church and having a good relationship with God are three distinct and different things – and they need to be approached and explored as such.

I completely agree with this.

I also liked what jmb wrote:

jmb275 wrote:

I believe there is value in humility. But I don’t believe that there is added value in bowing to authority, or even being humble towards it. I don’t believe in the idea that God expects us to follow our leaders just because they’re our leaders. This goes along the lines of “obedience is the first law of heaven.” Personally, I don’t believe this anymore. This simply puts too much power in the hands of fallible men. But I do think Heber nailed it by saying “the true peace you seek doesn’t come from them, it comes from knowing God is pleased…”

Let me offer my suggestions:

Let go of the idea that the church is God’s one and only kingdom on earth, to which you must belong and be in good standing in order to gain salvation.

Let go of the idea that there is salvation in the next life that is dependent on your deeds, and punishments here.

Embrace the idea that god is within you. It’s your journey, your spirituality. Seek to find the god within you on your terms, not on the church’s.

Don’t allow the church or its leaders to dictate your feelings and spirituality. If you do you, you are like the rebellious teenager who ironically resists control by insisting on doing the exact opposite of what his parents say.

(This one is most important I think) Seek spiritual growth from other sources outside the Mormon box, and don’t try to shoehorn what you learn into the Mormon box. This doesn’t mean you need to stop reading the BoM, or cease to be a member, it just means to reach out and seek learning elsewhere. Once I did this it has been the most rewarding experience of my life.

This is wonderful advice. Also, I share in the feelings of disgust that have been expressed regarding the persecution/punishment of members by overly zealous leaders. I really feel for you. Even as someone who is pretty much agnostic, I was really sad to read in your post that your relationship with the church is hurting your relationship with God… it should be just the opposite. However, different local leaders can make all the difference. My bishop is awesome. Now that you have a more reasonable bishop and SP, things can only get better. Hang in there, and focus on this (your own words):

mr_musicman wrote:

I know that Christ knows my weaknesses and is there to help me with them. Christ is not in the business of condemnation, but rather exaltation. It is so wonderful.

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