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hawkgrrrl wrote:

If there is something I don’t want to do that I’m being asked to do, I passively do nothing.

I find I am doing this more and more now, and I feel comfortable with it.

Thinking about the topic of obedience and freedom, I found it interesting to note that I feel the freest I have felt in the past 16 years of my membership in the church, and I am also being the least obedient than I have ever been. I am still keeping the basic church standards, but I have stopped beating myself up to do all that is required. I really just don’t care anymore now, most likely because I am fairly convinced that the church isn’t “true” in the traditional way that I was led to try to believe it was for so long. I think the big difference is that all the guilt is gone (what a relief!). Actually the guilt started to disappear about 3 years ago when I decided that I wasn’t ever going to get a testimony in the traditional TBM sense of the word, and that I could stop thinking there was something wrong with me because of it. After 10 years of praying and reading my scriptures every day, I just stopped caring about getting an answer since I figured if I was meant to get one HF had plenty of time to give me some kind of an inkling.

Since I still want my family to go to church and I have a desire to respect my TBM husband’s wishes, I will not do anything that is openly subversive/disobedient. But the freedom I feel comes from not feeling any guilt if I don’t read my scriptures. Or, on rare occasions, if I don’t feel like wearing my G’s, I don’t. Also, I feel absolutely no guilt whatsoever for not going to the temple.

In addition, I also feel that the sense of freedom I feel comes from the fact that the leaders of the church no longer have any control over me. They can’t threaten to take away my temple rec (I haven’t renewed it in 4 years), or threaten to release me from my calling (that would mean more free time, no problem), and the bishop knows that he would only be hurting my DH if I were ever to be disfellowshipped/disciplined, since I have been very honest with the bishop that I am at church for the sake of my family.

I guess I feel like they don’t have any power over me. After years of walking a hopelessly narrow path, I feel exhilarated to be able to spread out and breathe again.

I really like what Heber13 said… I think it is very good advice for you right now:

Heber13 wrote:

Maybe you don’t need to be obedient to everything right now. Pick and choose some of the most important things to be obedient on, and then study the others you aren’t sure about, and then you can be obedient to those when you feel good about it. First and foremost, you need to be obedient to your heart and what it is telling you is important more so than what others think you should be obedient to.

Just don’t beat yourself up and feel guilty for not being the perfect member/wife/etc. No one is. I have heard other members at church say that guilt is healthy because it helps you to be a better person. I suppose that can be true in small doses, but in my experience it leads to feelings of inadequacy and depression. I have TBM friends who are very candid about the fact that they believe they will never make it to the CK because they are not good enough. If they truly feel that way I don’t know why they bother at all… I feel sad for them.

[asha]

jmb275 wrote:

Religion has its place in our lives. It can help us spiritually and emotionally. That’s where it should stay. It ought to stay out of the predicting, political, social policy, and science realms.

Amen to that!

[asha]

Thanks, jmb, I LOVE that quote by Hugh B. Brown, it’s wonderful.

I also thank you for being so up front with your thoughts on this matter.

jmb275 wrote:

Your comment about cautioning her about what she reads hits on a nerve of mine. I had so many people tell me this and I got so aggravated. IMO this assumes that the individual must be cautious because there is something so scary out there that, if read, will send them off the Mormon cliff. This is a scare tactic (even if you didn’t mean it that way). It instills fear in people where there should be confidence and understanding. My approach, rather than tell her to be cautious, would be to give her direction on where to look. This is something none of my TBM friends or family (when I first started this journey) could tell me. I would often ask for suggestions about where to go to find more information about this.

Your comments caused me to reflect on what my motivation might have been in cautioning this girl. Like you, I get really aggravated when people caution me about what I read regarding the church. In fact, I would have to say that one of my biggest beefs with many of the leaders of the church is how they discourage members from reading anything that is not considered a “faithful history” of the church. My DH says that the church is very protective of its members, but that just makes me feel patronized like a little child who cannot be trusted to figure things out for themselves. I really resent it. So, I question why I felt it necessary to perpetuate this trend with her. The only answer I can come up with is an embarrassing one… even though I did feel genuine concern for her, I think I was also trying to protect myself. I am convinced that if the two of us had been sitting in my family room at home, the conversation would have gone quite differently. Instead, as soon as I recommended Mormon Enigma to her I felt conspicuous. I back-pedaled a bit and told her that the bishop might not approve of me recommending that book to her. I really don’t want to be regarded as the one who led this girl down a path that most members would view as questionable. I was very uncomfortable having that discussion in a church setting, and I could tell it really troubled the yw president as well, and she is someone I really respect.

I like what just me wrote as well:

just me wrote:

I won’t add more topics to their quest. I would let their journey progress naturally and assist on whatever topic they are currently studying.

I think this is how I will deal with questions from now on. I will answer as honestly and straightforwardly as possible, without pushing them in one way or another, and without burdening them with more information than they ask for. However, I still don’t think I will be comfortable talking about these issues at church. I am really trying to fly under the radar right now… there is enough for me to deal with on the home front (my DH has asked his fellow high-councilmen to pray for our family as I question my testimony… what testimony would that be?) I can’t deal with other people at church worrying about where I stand right now and (oh the horror) possibly turning me into a project. Like I have said before, my ward is relatively small by U.S. standards (actually we are the biggest ward in the stake) so everyone is in everyone else’s business.

I thought I was trying to protect this girl, and that is partly true, but if I am honest it had more to do with self-preservation. I am a bit ashamed, but I also feel like I was really caught off guard, and I don’t think on my feet very well. Hopefully next time I can do better.

Meanwhile, another bit of fallout from this is that my best friend who recently moved out of the ward and who was the yw pres for the past two years (and is still VERY protective of the yw), totally chewed me out for talking about such “inappropriate” things when any yw were around. She said she wouldn’t be surprised if the yw who was asking about JS’s polygamy tells her mother who will in turn go and complain to the bishop. So, who knows what might have been started here.

[asha]

Heber13 wrote:

The bottom line was, we were able to talk and help her see many of the good from church that will benefit her. The things that don’t sound right should be questioned and we’ll establish our standards for drinking soda, dating, keeping the sabbath holy, and other interpretations as a family. I don’t want her to be rebellious and throw out all the good the church teaches, but I want her to learn to develop a testimony by searching things, not by blind obedience.

I really like this. I think this is very much the approach that I am taking with my two eldest kids (12 and 13). I am constantly pointing out how helpful following the youth standards can be to them as they navigate their way through high school. However, I also encourage them to really think about what they are taught, and to not be afraid to question anything a leader says or teaches. It has opened up a wonderful dialogue in our family, and I feel closer to them for it.

Heber13 wrote:

My young boys of 6 and 10 will just continue to be taught the normal primary lessons. Like believing in Santa Claus, there is value in letting them have hope and peace to understand things at their level.

Thank you so much for this… it has made me feel much more comfortable about what my younger children are learning at church. My two youngest especially still really love Primary, but sometimes I wonder about what they are being taught there, especially regarding the early church, first vision etc. However, what you say makes sense, and I feel a lot more at peace about it now.

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just me wrote:

I have felt the spirit more often and stronger in my life than ever before. I have also felt a dark spirit several times during this journey.

As I search the scriptures I find so many truths and the symbolism is opening up to me. I’m trying to decide how much is literal and how much symbolic (for me).

I have often felt that the more I learn the less I know.

I can admit that I could be wrong about everything.

I feel more compassion than before.

Welcome “just me”. I LOVE your intro, in particular how you convey such a sense of humility and open-mindedness. I am fairly new here too. I hope you find the support you are looking for here… even if it is just a knowledge that you are not alone. Welcome.

[asha]

Hooray! Congratulations Ray! I am sincerely happy for you.

[asha]

Old-Timer wrote:

you have to accept that your concern with regard to “relating” is selfish – that it is focused on you and not him. You want him to change, and you want it so that your life will be easier – even though his will be harder.

Recognizing that is a start, and seeing yourself as a “protector” in some way is one of the first steps toward peace and actual “relating”.

I think you are absolutely correct on this one Ray. I have already made many mistakes in my impatience to “enlighten” (I use that term very loosely) him on various subjects. I think you are right that my motives are very much self-interested. He is happy. I need to respect that and not push the issue, especially knowing how devastating it could be to him if he were to eventually struggle with his faith the way I have.

[asha]

Old-Timer wrote:

I personally don’t think that consciously choosing to act forcefully (even in a way that appears “angry”) is the same thing as “being angry” – and I don’t believe that we ever should act in anger.

I absolutely think there is such a thing as “healthy” anger. This type of outrage can motivate people to take a stand against injustice and evil, and make positive changes in the world and in their own lives. The trick is to not let anger cloud your emotions and control your actions, as that will almost certainly have negative results.

The only world in which anger would have no place at all would be a perfect one… and we are not living in that.

[asha]

Old-Timer wrote:

We need to be very careful to choose “anger” and not allow it to choose us.

Well said. Very “Obiwan Kenobi”-ish. I like it.

[asha]

jmb275 wrote:

Within Mormonism I am different, bring diversity to the table, challenge the status quo, and while it may not be welcome, in the long run it is for the better of the church and my fellows, and most importantly, myself.

I myself am coming to realize that this truly is the “high road” so to speak. It is the unselfish path that many other moderate mormons are hoping we will choose because of the positive influence we can have on those around us at church.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Stephen Wellington: By increasing cohesiveness in a group it will correspondingly decrease groupthink, censorship, and all other negative aspects of majority influence & even the negative aspects of minority influence. It will also increase authentic dissent which will help to moderate the group.

Over time, if not exposed to a moderating influence, groups gradually become more radical as they base their ideal behaviour on their commonly held values. A minority group can help to moderate this shift towards radicalism/fundamentalism.

This makes so much sense to me.

I’m just so unsure whether or not I have it in me for the long term due to the amount of sacrifice that it requires. For the first time in my life I actually wish that I lived somewhere where the church is huge so that I could be a bit less involved without drawing too much attention the way I will here. It could be really unfeasible to try to be a “buffet” mormon in my ward. Sigh.

On a more positive note, congrats jmb for sticking a pinky toe into what looks like stage 5. This is genuine admiration coming from a fellow stage 4-er.

[asha]

Dwarik wrote:

Religion is a a excellent ‘excuse’ for being nice without the expectation of getting anything back.

I think in some ways I disagree with this… I mean someone who is following a strict set of religious commandments (such as “being nice”) because they believe they need to in order to one day gain a heavenly reward and/or escape eternal damnation, definitely has an expectation of getting something back. The cynical side of me worries that for many true-believers that is what motivates them.

A quick study of Humanism can show you that religion is not necessarily an essential component for being moral/ethical.

IMO it would be a higher, more mature level of morality when a person with no religion is good simply for goodness’ sake, rather than someone who is motivated by “dreaming of mansions above”.

However, I am making generalizations… I’m not trying to paint a picture of everyone in Fowler’s stage 3 being only motivated by fear and/or heavenly rewards, but it seems to me that the more mature morality of being good just because it is right and good is more typical to someone in stages 4 through 6, which many religious people never go through. I am sure those of you who disagree with me will let me know!

Now I’m rambling too.

[asha]

Interesting article. I can certainly relate to this on a personal level. I was raised by an atheist and an agnostic, and joined the LDS church at the age of 21 while away at university. I NEVER had anything coming even remotely close to a spiritual conversion, but rather was attracted to the church’s emphasis on family and community (I still am!). In addition, both of my parents worked, so I was definitely drawn to the more traditional family image that the church put forth. In my own way, I guess I was rebelling against the way I was brought up when I joined the LDS church.

[asha]

jmb275 wrote:

Try inviting him to get involved in the discussion at faceseast.org.

I don’t think this is going to happen, since he already is annoyed at how much I am on the computer myself. Plus he is mistrustful of anything online about the church that isn’t at lds.org.

Thanks for your replies though. I really agree with what hawk says about “investing in marriage”. I guess I need to stop feeling so “right” all the time… it can be a lonely place to be, and not really worth it.

[asha]

What? wrote:

I would love to be able to stay and not be offended but I also understand that if I revealed how I felt and what I had learned, that I would definately offend others; So i’ll remain quiet. I just wish I knew how to turn down the doctrine channel so that I’m not flooded by noise pollution and sent into a public display of “eye-rolling” and angry stares of disgust. It is so easy to be sucked up into collective consciousness. I want to be in the church, but not of the church.

Sometimes it is challenging to just focus on the good at church, but it can be done. You are right that it is often better to bite your tongue in some circumstances at church than to speak out and cause contention… it can be hard. However, you don’t have to “remain quiet” in this forum… “reveal” away! We all want to hear from you and there will be no “angry stares of disgust”. Plus you can use the smilies for effective eye-rolling at your convenience!

Welcome, What?, welcome! You are among friends here.

[asha]

Buscador wrote:

information is so easy to get nowadays that I believe the church will have to adjust in order to continue to exist.

Yes. I don’t see it ever happening though.

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