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Nah, I don’t mind… delete away! It is an interesting topic, but I agree that it probably belongs in another forum. 
I have fairly strong opinions on this one. I didn’t grow up in the church, and drank to quite an excess during my late teens. I had actually quit drinking alcohol before I even started investigating the church, since some of my friends thought I had a problem with it. They were likely correct. Also smoked up and did LSD, but never to the extent that I drank, and only in the company of other people, whereas I often drank alone. (This could give some of you some insight into the baggage I carry that makes me really fear bringing up kids outside the church).
I won’t say too much about LSD except to say that I think it is illegal for good reasons.
Pot/marijuana on the other hand, while still a harmful narcotic, is quite arguably nowhere near as destructive a drug as alcohol. Far more people destroy their lives and the lives of those around them because of alcohol abuse than marijuana use. I admit, perhaps part of that is due to the fact that fewer people become serious stoners due to pot being illegal, but I really think it has more to do with the nature of the drug itself. Pot mellows you out and calms you down, alcohol can do quite the opposite (until you pass out). Plus alcohol is far more addictive for many people, in a lot of cases for genetic reasons. The main argument I always hear against marijuana use is that it could be a stepping stone to heavier drugs, but for many people that just isn’t the case. To me, it is a contradiction to have a drug as addictive and destructive as alcohol legal when pot isn’t. Plus, IMO, it would be a huge blow to the illegal drug trade if pot was legalized.
I personally have no desire to ever drink or smoke up ever again, but I support the legalization of marijuana because I simply don’t view it as dangerous as alcohol, and given that I just don’t see it as realistic to even contemplate making alcohol use illegal, it seems unreasonable that one should be legal and not the other.
Oh, and alcohol definitely does destroy brain cells… I always thought that was what the hangover was, but I could be wrong.
Don’t even get me started on the arguments surrounding tobacco use… IMO the most deadly of any of the drugs mentioned.
Never thought I would be talking about this in this forum!
hawkgrrrl wrote:I don’t believe the church deliberately deceives anyone. They are selling what they themselves buy.
I’m not sure about this anymore. Part of what makes me uncomfortable about my son serving a mission one day is that I DO think omitting information that could make a huge difference to a person’s judgement on something IS deceptive.
I really don’t want to end up being the cynic here, but I can’t help but feel that the leaders of the church have quite a vested interest in maintaining the church’s image, from a even temporal standpoint… they need to “buy” what they are themselves selling since their jobs are on the line, right? Sorry if that is somewhat crass, but really, the leaders of the church more than anyone have their entire lives tied up in the church, many of them having served full-time for many decades. I suppose it is natural to want to be protective of the church, even to the point of deception, when you are that far embroiled in it, but I don’t think it makes it right. I understand why they do it, but I don’t think it is right.
Finally, if the church isn’t deliberately deceiving people, than why are hordes of angry/disillusioned members and ex-members flocking to online forums with feelings of shock and betrayal? I certainly feel as though I have been deceived about a number of issues.
Sorry… it’s been a long day.
I can’t offer any useful information here except to say that I share many of your concerns jmb, and I too would like to hear the thoughts of some of the other forum members here on this subject. I have four daughters and one son who is 12 years old. He is one of the main reasons I am struggling to make the church work in my life somehow. He has very poor social skills (some of you might have heard of Aspergers syndrome, he has a very high-functioning form of it) and therefore finds it difficult to make new friends. He has very few friends at school except those who are somewhat socially awkward like him (he is basically like a brilliant little professor who gets very high marks, is obsessed with star wars and finds it hard to relate to people). The deacons at church have been so wonderful to him, they accepted him right away, and he absolutely lives for scouts on Wednesday nights… I just can’t take that away from him. However, I must be honest that the thought of him going on a mission for the church one day leaves me with a pit in my stomach… mainly for the reasons that jmb has just listed. I just don’t think it is worth my boy giving up two years of his life for. I know I am being hypocritical about how I want him to be involved in the church, I’ll admit it… I want my cake and to not have it go on a mission too! LaLaLove wrote:Obviously I need to put a more positive spin on all of these things that irritate me!
I have the same trouble… in fact I have to honestly admit that I find F&T meetings unbearable. I was so relieved to be able to miss church today due to a stomach bug that is spreading through our children… I actually thought “anything is better than sitting through another F&T meeting!” I really wish I didn’t feel so negatively about it, but I find it so hard to sit through those Sundays in particular. If any of you can come up with some helpful F&T meetings coping strategies, let me know!
LaLaLove wrote:I can’t wait to kick him when we are both dead .. And say ” I told you so .. “
Oh my… I think you and I are kindred spirits Lala!
😆 Great thread guys… I guess I really did open up a can of worms!
I also have to say how impressed I am with how polite you are to each other even when you disagree… what a great bunch of people you are!
It would probably surprise you all (given the tone of my posts in this thread) to know that I actually strongly believe that polygamy should be de-criminalized in both Canada and the U.S. Like same-sex marriage, I see it as more of a political/civil rights issue, and not a religious one, when it is practiced between consenting adults (child abuse, incest and forced marriage is a whole different story, and does not have to be viewed as part of the whole deal). If people find that it is a lifestyle that works for them, who am I to judge or tell them what to do? That being said, I repeat what I said before, that I think polygamy only really works in societies/cultures where women are of inferior status. This is why the whole idea of polygamy in heaven is disturbing to me… who would want to believe in a god that favours women over men (not very many women I’m sure)? I agree with Todd Compton’s view that the polygamy that was practiced in OT times was more a reflection of the semitic culture of the time, and did not have real significance in a religious/gospel sense. This would also explain why it is a system that will not work in our modern culture today where women share equal rights with men.
As for polyandry… I don’t think many mainstream members of the church are even aware that this took place. When I asked my DH what he thought about it (I brought it up with him a couple of times when I was reading ISL), he had never heard of it, neither had any of my other member friends. It is definitely not a part of the church’s “faithful history”. I think in many cases it was done for dynastic reasons, but maybe I am just being naive.
Personally, I find the whole notion of polyandry a heck of a lot more easy to stomach than polygyny
Good luck and best wishes Ray! I hope it all goes well. I will be thinking positive thoughts for you! Old-Timer wrote:asha, there was another thread about polygamy a while ago. It can be found here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27
Thanks for this Ray, it was very interesting to read that thread.
I think hawk hit the nail on the head with her comment:
hawkgrrrl wrote:I’m with you, though, that I’d be bothered that it’s your living DH’s view, far less concerned that he’s actually right.
I am hopeful however, that my DH might just be regurgitating things that he hasn’t actually given much thought too… after all, if he TRULY believed what he claims to believe, then he would be searching for a different “eternal companion” since I certainly will not be very helpful in his attaining that version of the CK.
It is troubling to me that he does not seem to recognize that polygamy only works in cultures where women are inferior to men. I have to say that my DH has never behaved in a way that I would describe as sexist. He has always been a very hands-on father and husband, changing diapers, getting up in the night with our babies, clearing the table after supper, etc. Every night before he goes upstairs to bed he unloads the dishwasher and sets the table for breakfast. I just don’t want to paint a male-chauvinist picture of him that simply isn’t true. Perhaps it is given all this that I find his view on polygamy in the CK so confusing.
I know this could sound somewhat insulting, but I really wonder if members who think as my DH does have really given the whole idea of polygamy in heaven much thought other than just accepting that that is the way it is. Like so many other “issues” in the church, it seems to me that they don’t think to question it, because they don’t THINK about it. I am sorry if that sounds offensive, I am trying to be diplomatic here, but there are so many areas in the church where I wonder why intelligent, rational people can’t just take the rose-coloured glasses off for a sec, step back and say, yea, that’s kind of crazy. Again, sorry, I don’t want to offend… I just feel so bewildered by all this… as hawk said:
hawkgrrrl wrote:only in Mormonism!
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Quote:I know that President Monson is _________________.
I have faith that Pres. Monson is a sincere and good man whose greatest desire is to serve and lift others up.
Quote:I know that Jesus Christ ______________.
I love the teachings of Jesus. I find them full of wisdom and provocative thought. I feel as though Jesus is someone with whom I relate. The teachings attributed to him are very relevant to my life.
Quote:I know that God is ______________.
I have sometimes felt God’s love, as if a benevolent force was looking over my shoulder.
I love this, hawk… I feel very much the same way.
jmb275 wrote:It is clear to me that I have a long way to go in this area. It is clear to me that I am still very much in stage 4 (hoping to not slip back into stage 3 with opposing views). It is clear to me that I am still angry, feel deceived, and otherwise would really rather not have anything to do at all with the church. But alas, I am staying in (for the time being) because of my family mostly. I hope I can grow out of it!!
Hang in there, jmb. I still waver back and forth on almost a daily basis myself! I won’t fill in the blanks in your original post since I honestly admit that mine would be pretty much identical to what you wrote yourself. However, I DO think (dare I say, “know” ? ) that it is possible to focus on the good in the church and move forward past the bitterness and feelings of betrayal (I am definitely not all the way there yet).
I still get a surge of impatience every time I hear someone at church say the words “I know”, but I try to substitute in my mind for the words “I believe”, since that is what they really mean (even if they aren’t aware of it).
jmb275 wrote:I must say, a lot of what I hear here so far sounds a lot like excuses to stay in the church
I think you and I are very much on the same page, jmb. Perhaps that is simply because we are both in relatively the same stage in this journey. Either way, I will be 100% honest about the fact that I feel like I AM making “excuses” to stay in the church on pretty much a daily basis. I could literally divide a sheet of paper down the middle and make a list of pros on one side and cons on the other. I think on some days the list of pros would seem longer, and on other days the cons would tip the scale. However, for me it all comes down to my family, and for now that trumps any negatives. I absolutely think you can raise great kids inside and outside of the LDS church, but as long as my husband remains committed to the church, I feel like I have no choice but to stay in order to maintain family peace and unity.
What has helped me a great deal recently, and has drawn me closer to positive sites like this forum, is making an effort to focus on the good in any and every church event/activity that I attend. Focusing on the negative accomplishes nothing if you are really trying to find a way to stay active, it only makes you feel more frustrated, and in my case more trapped by my circumstances.
On the flip side, I love coming away from a youth activity (I work in YW) with a good feeling inside, saying to myself “this is why I stay”. If I can focus on those moments and not let the negative ones get to me, then I will be able to view my continued church membership as a positive experience (rather than just a sacrifice for the sake of my family, however noble that may be).
Besides, in my case, I have come to see that my family will not get any great benefit out of having me at church with them if I do it with an angry, bitter attitude (I do still have some Sundays like this though!), so I find I have to make a conscious effort to look for the positive. I am very encouraged by the fact that in serving the youth I am seeing countless positive aspects of the church.
BTW, one BIG positive that has come out of all of this, is that I seem to have a much more open dialogue with my two older kids (aged 12 and 13). I am very honest with them, and we have had some wonderful discussions on the way home from church and firesides.
Welcome jmb to StayLDS! You are very fortunate to be making this journey with an understanding spouse by your side. Even if you are not in total agreement about everything, the fact that you share some common ground when it comes to “problem” areas of the church will make it that much easier for the two of you to have an open, honest dialogue regarding such things as how to raise the children, or even what level of involvement you want to have in the church as a family. I hope you find this forum helpful. Again, welcome!
Welcome Drew. I hope you find this forum helpful… I have found it helps just to know that you are not alone. I have been so busy the past few days it has been hard for me to find time to check the forum… maybe that was what the bishop was hoping for when he gave me this new calling 😮 .Anyway, sorry I am coming so late to welcome you here! WELCOME! Your intro is great and I think we have a great deal in common, especially in both the things you like and dislike about the church. I think it is wonderful that you are still able to appreciate the good that is there in the church, especially when you are feeling angry about the bad.
I am curious if any of your extended family is LDS? I am assuming your inlaws must be, and perhaps that has an influence on how your husband feels about the church as well. That might be another area where you might have to tread softly in order to keep the peace. My husband’s family are TBMs who seem to have a great deal of influence still over my husband, even though we have been married for 15 years and live very far away from them. I think my DH feels that if were ever anything less than a solid iron rod mormon he would be letting his parents down.
Anyway, hope you find this forum helpful… I know I have already, and I am still very new here. I look forward to hearing more from you.
BTW, I HATE it when kids get up and bear their “testimonies”, but maybe that makes me a grumpy old scrooge.
I really enjoyed this post, and I am glad that I came to it a bit late because everyone’s replies were so interesting. I agree with much of what was said, especially of how the church states that family should always come first. It is true that they do… I just find in my own personal experience, and that of the people I have seen in the 4 different wards that I have lived in, it doesn’t work this way in practice. It almost seems like one thing is being said and another thing is being done. The practice of neglecting your family for the sake of your calling is rampant in the church, and whether the church condones it or not, they are the ones responsible for setting in place the conditions for it to happen.
In my ward, I was recently released as first counselor in the Primary Presidency, and they still have not found anyone to replace me. The second counselor is the wife of our bishop, and was called to that position when she was 7 and a half months pregnant with her fourth child. After she had her baby, she was back at church in primary running sharing time when her baby was only three weeks old. The Primary President has five children ranging in age from 6 months to 8 years old, and her husband is the first counselor in the bishopric! I remember when he was called to that position, his wife had just given birth to their fifth child and they released him from the Stake High Council. I sat there in SM thinking, oh that will be so nice for his wife to have him with her at church to help out with all those young kids. Thirty seconds later they were calling him as a member of the bishopric and asking him to take his place on the stand… so much for being with his family!
I also remember a few years ago when my husband was called as the second counselor in the bishopric, the bishop looked right at me and said that this was a bishopric of young families, and that those families came first. At the time the youngest of our five kids were an infant and a toddler. The bishop said that if any of the members of the bishopric felt that they were better needed sitting with their families instead of on the stand then they were welcome to do so. This sounded so nice… but turned out to be a total joke. My husband would sit up on the stand shifting uncomfortably in his seat watching me wrestle with our five children throughout SM, sometimes to the point that I would be almost in tears. He never did get up and come down to sit with me. Even my friend who sat in the pew in front of me (and tried her best to help me but had her own kids to deal with) would get so frustrated and say, “How can he just sit up there and watch you struggle like this???” When I confronted him about it, he said he just felt SO much pressure to stay up on the stand since the other men with young families did too… he just didn’t want to be conspicuous.
😯 I was so annoyed by the whole thing that I gave up on SM for the remaining four months that he was in the bishopric. I just told him flat out that I wasn’t doing it on my own anymore, and I started to arrive at church right at the end of SM. I have always secretly wondered if my behaviour expedited his release from the bishopric
My DH is not alone in feeling the peer pressure at church to behave one way when the official word does not approve it. I see people neglecting their family all the time for the sake of their calling because they feel guilty if they don’t keep up with what everyone else is doing. I am sure we have all heard it said that the family as a whole will receive blessings as a result of the sacrifices made when members of it are taken away so much by their callings. To me the biggest blessing my family could have would be to have more time together!
Anyway… that’s the end of my rant. Cool post Gabe, and I COMPLETELY empathize with your feelings on the “closed-off” temple, which would come as no surprise considering some of my previous posts. I don’t think it is possible to measure the amount of heartache that tradition has caused. You might be interested in an article written by Todd Compton in the March 1999 issue of Sunstone titled, “Thoughts on the Possibility of an Open Temple”. If you haven’t read it yet I think you will enjoy it.
