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Well, guys, I’d love for one of you to finish it. I would be interested to hear how you felt about the way he tied the characters and experiences altogether. I was quite touched but of course, I am no longer a believer. I am so, shocked at the division that I see among believers and others either nuanced or no longer believing. WAY TOO MUCH division. People very sadly live for years with all kinds of hurtful, painful wedges and many end up in strained relationships, divorces, they become outsiders with their own children, parents, spouses. So Sad! A saying that became far more meaningful in my faith transition is “It’s always darker before the dawn”. This is tough. I told you in another post that my hubby began all this and I was the TBM. Do you know he even moved forward and baptized our twin boys even though his heart and mind was not really there. He knew how important is was for me and our boys at the time. Little did I know then (which was 3 years ago) how hard this was for him at the time. Oh how my love for him has deepened and I so appreciate his support. With that being said, I didn’t realize at that time how much I would come to appreciate all of this. I was so worried, disappointed and sad about his faith changes and decline. This is really, really hard stuff to navigate so please be patient with yourself, your wife and the whole process. Find a support system that helps you as you continue to find a better balance with your wife. There are so many resources available and awesome podcasts etc. that help validate you! Sending hugs and best wishes! Oh boy, this is tough! I can relate to all you are saying because I was in your wife’s situation a few years ago. Her sobbing and tears are out of loss and fear. Here once secure thoughts of eternal family is now being shattered in her mind. She doesn’t want to talk about it because it is so painful to face the reality. I was devastated. I couldn’t understand why my husband was doing this either. I know now how much you are hurting as well. If I could change anything about that time in my life, it would be to pause thinking about my own pain and loss and look at may husband’s feelings of loss as well. The Santa Claus analogy is one I used when explaining this to my sis in law. I am so grateful that my husband was patient with me even though I was not always kind to him but again, it’s all about that fear factor. You are not doing this to your wife. The church let you down. You are hurt too! The hard part about this transitioning phase is finding a place where you can both come together again. It takes time and gentle, gentle persistence. I know some people stop talking about it and never seem to arrive at a place where they once again feel lovingly safe together. I don’t believe that is a healthy relationship although I do think it takes time to process together. Over time, I came to see that my husband was the same man I married. His love for me was genuine and strong. I cried many hours going through all of this. I hope it gives you hope to know that people really do get through this and relationships can be even more beautiful and bonded than ever before as is in our case. It did take time (several years) God bless! I wish I could say something to help you feel better. It is devastating to reach the points you are expressing about Joseph Smith. Once upon a time he was one of the most amazing men to me. I honored and respected him so much. When I started to learn all the truth about Joseph, I was certain the things I was hearing were wrong and misconstrued. Sadly, as I dug deeper and learned more historical facts, and I was selective where I researched, I had a complete shift in the way I felt about Joseph. Contrary to what many apologist would have you believe, marrying young girls was NOT anywhere near the norm in that century. Emma was 22 years old and Joseph 21 years old when they eloped! I am older than you are and had been very active and engaged in the church all my life and many things written in the now published church essays was not common knowledge and even many things are being stated differently than what I was taught and led to believe over the years No wonder so many people are struggling with the church’s truth claims. If people bother to research the footnotes with the essays, there is still information being spun and misrepresented and even used in the opposite way as was the original intent. I am shocked at the deceitful things I have discovered that my once held beloved church and leaders are doing. I am sorry you are hurting. This is very painful information to process. Sending hugs and best wishes as you continue to move forward on your faith journey. I know many people who have been through this as well and please know that so many are at a place where they are experiencing peace, hope, joy, beauty and even excitement in shaping new paradigms and life decisions. 🙂 Hi Bear, I am going to share my personal story…..A few years ago, my husband went through a job change. We had been self employed and with the economy problems at the time, our business of 14 years changed dramatically and it became necessary to find other employment. We had been successfully self employed to this point. My husband took a job that was working out of town as we considered our next move. I stopped paying tithing and let my temple recommend lapse. The first time EVER in our married life of 30 years. 3 months into this, my bishop asked to meet with me. My hubby was out of town at the time. He was concerned about my recommend expiring and I told him why. We had a very nice and interesting conversation. I felt the spirit very strong within myself confirm that I was indeed doing the right thing for my family. My bishop however, told me that they could help us during this time but to still pay my tithing. I replied that if I didn’t pay my tithing I would require no help and I felt that the Lord would rather me take care of my family needs instead of having the church. We agreed to disagree and I left. Of course, I was troubled and began looking into tithing more thoroughly than I had before. I had never heard of surplus or even the idea of not having surplus. When I came across the original tithing information I was again reaffirmed that I had made the right choice for me. I learned so many things about tithing that I didn’t know. Through this whole transition of faith I am learning how important it is to rely on yourself for spiritual confirmation. Don’t confuse with others expectations even leaders. I also want to say that I don’t believe that God blesses people who pay more tithing. I feel very blessed these past years through our business and life changes and I have been blessed more than ever. Research this out. There are many resources that are reputable and you may be surprised as I was as you expand your knowledge on the idea of tithing. It was difficult at first to wrap my mind around ideas that I had never entertained before. I was very orthodox. As I have become more educated of our church and history, my beliefs have shifted a lot and I don’t harbor the guilt and fear that I once did. It is very liberating and frees me to feel a much deeper love and personal connection with God. God bless!
Hi Roy, I had this exact same issue come up last year! My boys, now 9, were telling me all about the 3 degrees of glory and explaining to me about being together in the celestial kingdom if we are all good! This has bothered me so much that since we have moved out of state last summer, we have rarely attended church. I do want my kids involved and I have a DD that turned 8 last August and still has not been baptized. We were thinking we would baptize her with another family member who also turned 8 this month back in our the state we moved from and have told our bishop this. I seriously have been very involved all my life as well as my hubby so to step back as we have has been very different for us but we felt it was necessary as we tried to sift through all of this and figure out how to proceed forward without this kind of well I guess manipulation. Kids are so impressionable and it is hard to see the black and white approach given to them by well meaning primary leaders. I wish I knew the answer. I’m curious to see what others are doing.
Ok, i dont know how yo do the fancy quote box but Bill you say, “Thanks for the kind words…. It means so much to hear that especially in the midst of some of the faithful speaking ill of me and my work.” Bill, you are doing so much good for so many, faithful speaking ill of you and your work? I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve listened to many of your podcasts. In fact another one today….Robert Keely which again was so good. How do you navigate this with your family? That is my hardest problem right now. I feel a bit frozen and hardly go to church at all. I’m so concerned about my kids at home ranging from ages 6 to 9. I want them to have some religion but I so don’t want them to be indoctrinated the way I was. How do you and your wife work with this?
Hi All, Great post Keither. Boy, many of us can relate to this. I have been married 31 years!!! I was “the wife”!
😯 I had never heard about most of the stuff he talked about. I finally realized where his heart was. He didn’t go out looking for trouble with the church, he went searching for answers for a friend struggling. It was then he came across so many issues he just couldn’t close it all out. It is SHOCKING to say the least. Our son came to us with questions because he had a teacher at school that got the kids to think a bit for themselves and he was arriving at the conclusion that there were so many great religions and philosophies out there! He is right, but at the time I encouraged him to keep going to church because I would say, “there is good to glean from it.” (Of course, secretly hoping at the time that something would touch his heart and change his mind) Again, what a daunting request for someone who is standing there feeling alone with questions…..keep going to church. Wow! My husband and son both continued to go to church and support me. I am so grateful that I am now able to understand what they were feeling. Yes, I am a Mormon in my core but I have come to open my heart and mind to the flaws, lies, and uncomfortable issues with the church. I took the words “Follow the Prophet, you won’t go astray” literally but I am so much more comfortable now, that I have changed my paradigm about the leaders being perfect. Things that ultimately helped me come around were articles and podcasts from members which helped me see the imperfections, which I might add was extremely painful and devastating at first. My husband was awesome and so sweet and understanding and I began to understand him and what he had been going through as well as my son. That’s when my heart really began to swell with empathy of what he had been going through all alone. I apologized to both my hubby and my son. Ultimately, my relationship with both my husband and son has grown so much.It helped me that I have a sister and brother who are also going through their own faith journeys so I do believe it is so important to get yourself some support. Too bad their isn’t a website that TBM could go to and get a better understanding from others of what their spouse is feeling. Of course, this would probably never work because at the TBM level we feel pretty “correct” and unwillingly to view or discuss uncomfortable things.
One thing I would suggest is just working on the love and connection in your marriage that is not religious! Dates, thoughtful acts, service, etc. In our church, church becomes so intertwined in everything. It doesn’t matter when we’re TBM we hardly realize how much it is a part of every single aspect of our life. Stepping back now, I have come to realize how important people are and relationships. Why I fell in love with my hubby in the first place……not all religious answers!
🙂 Thank you friends. A lot of thought provoking and insightful remarks have been made and I really appreciate your input. Because of my unwillingness to begin anyone else’s faith crisis I navigate carefully when controversies are aroused. I do cringe, however, a bit at the misconceptions that are also aroused. (no one has offended me. I am surrounded by wonderful friends in my ward, etc) I will say, I do admire my brother who is braver than I at his ability to cause others to contemplate in a good way. I hope to be more like this in the future. I am so grateful for brave people who also emulate empathy as well as strength. Probably they are the reasons our LDS leaders are beginning to address tough issues. Bill Reel is another I have appreciated so much. His podcasts as well as his insights shared have been really validating and comforting and insightful. We moved out of state when this really got much bigger for me and I have easily been able to stand back and take my time evaluating all that I have learned without the added conflict of my ward friends wondering where I am etc. Our TBM family members would probably be very shocked to learn how we feel right now and I am certain there would be much added pressure to get back in the mold. So glad I don’t have to deal with that. How do you guys that do have to deal with this do it? Love to hear more of your stories on this topic…..;o)
I knew venting my feelings would be a good thing here. Thanks for the understanding remarks and validation. I appreciate that so much. For those of you interested, here is the blog link my hubby was given in an email from a friend – http://lemmonythings.com/2015/04/14/why-i-want-you-to-stay-a-letter-from-a-mormon/ I did respond on the comment section at the bottom of the blog…..Confession, once again I used an alias name “Carrie”
😆 if you are interested in reading what I replied. I noticed when I went back this afternoon to see if others had responded there were some more comments. I know some people are hurt and feel a lot of anger but I also think it is important to be sympathetic and understanding as well. By the way, once again I have never heard of this blogger. This link was given to my husband in an email from a well meaning friend who obviously shares the viewpoint of this blogger about the reasons people leave. Boy, if only they really knew!!! It takes a lot of courage, strength and understanding forgiveness and patience to go through these types of faith journeys and I am truly blessed by the members here who have shared their stories, thoughts and insights. Wouldn’t it be nice if we all could talk more openly in our own wards like this?Mom – tell me more about paying directly to Salt Lake. Do you still have tithing settlement with the Bidhop? Bill, do you know of any groups like this in Arizona? I am near Phoenix. Thanks! Also, thank you for your podcasts. I really appreciate your honesty and candor. I like what Ray said, however, I will say that those of us who have been in the church for years have often times developed the “black and white” way of thinking because the church has “groomed” us this way. I, too, felt as you did and I have been through many paradigm shifts since all of this began so I really understand where you are coming from. Also, ideally when you talk more openly with hubby it will be this awesome conversation where you will both be open, understanding, sensitive and honest………..yeah right!…Be more prepared for resistance, denial, anger, sadness, confusion etc. because let’s face it, our religion is a culture and the foundation begins to crack and crumble. That doesn’t mean you won’t work through this and find a place that works for you, hubby and family but most likely it will take awhile. I just want to be honest so you will be prepared. If you were to tell me where I would be in my heart right now a year and half ago there is no way I would have believed it then. It is a work in progress and it does take time, true validation and love. Hi White Rapids, I have read several of your posts. My brother “Newlight” mentioned you to me. Welcome to this forum. It is a wonderful place with so many kind and open people. Everyone here processing things in all different directions. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could go to church and feel the same open type of discussions as we can have here? No judgment, just good friends who could listen without feeling threatened or feeling like they need to reconvert us again! ;o) All of us poor lost sheep! JK ;o)
My husband is the first to have a FC. When he first approached me, I didn’t take it well. I was threatened, devastated, and felt so lonely and desperate! I didn’t believe him on many of the issues he presented. It has been about a year and half. I am so glad he opened up to me even though it was tough and I made it tougher. I had to process things differently. I found some really great articles on the “Pure Mormonism Blog” and I also loved the Richard Bushman series on “MormonStories.com” (this one is 5 parts and I loved each segment) as well as the discussions on Mormon Stories with Terryl and Fiona Givens. Because these people are active members of the church, I was able to listen to some hard topics and truths. It helped me better understand my husband. I was able to put my guard down and understand the depth of what my husband was going through instead of feeling threatened about our eternal salvation.
I have experienced many emotions from sadness, loss, anger, desperation, despair, confusion as well as peace, understanding, curiosity, acceptance and love. It sounds like you can relate to this. I think it is really important for spouses to be able to communicate. Just be willing to let your spouse feel what they feel too. We all need validation. I think this can feel like an emotional roller coaster but for me it has gotten so much better. We can never go back but moving forward does get better even though initially I had my doubts about that. Bill Reel is also another great interviewer. I have listened to several of his podcasts on “MormonDiscussionPodcast.org” I could so relate to his “Our Bad Days” podcast this past December which I really appreciated his honesty because it is reassuring for me to see others whom I admire also experience and express these types of things I am feeling. That podcast is really great. A more recent podcast “Dark Night of the Soul” is also very good.
I know you are thinking about leaving but might I just suggest instead of an “all or nothing approach” to maybe step back out of your calling and take some time to really let yourself come and go freely without the pressure of “having to be there”. It has been really important for me to do this. I have also been very involved in many leadership callings as well. I can get up and leave any meeting that I want to or just spend a Sunday enjoying my family at home or out somewhere.
We are so glad you found us. This is a great place to be. So many kind people to talk to as well as bounce thoughts and ideas from. Good Luck as you continue on your faith journey. Sending hugs! ;o)
