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First finding out is a lot like jumping into an icy cold swimming pool – very uncomfortable. Fortunately it does get better with time – usually fairly quickly. In regards to MormonThink – it does an excellent job of introducing a breadth of issues. However it doesn’t go very deep on either side the for or the against – I also agree that it is slanted towards the against although I feel it is very factual – it just doesn’t spend much effort on why the church could still be OK despite the facts and doesn’t create a context of the 1820s worldview. If you feel the need to really research and know what the real story is, IMO, it does require you to research both sides on your own beyond just Mormon think.
Also, just my opinion but FAIR is one of the weaker apologetic sites. They tend to resort to ad hominem attacks very quickly.
This forum is also primarily an apologetic forum. Although the claim is that anything an be discussed on here the heaviest contributors are the admins, especially one particular admin who feels the need to shape most threads to go the direction he wants them to go.
It tends to narrow things quite a bit that the admins so heavily control the dialogue, primarily by providing such a high percentage of the posts. If that works for you and fits your needs great, if not there are several other support forums that I find to be quite a bit more open about discussing the pros and cons not just the pros of Mormonism with a little lip service to the cons.
I guess my point is any website is going to have a bias to some degree. Just be aware of the bias, don’t avoid them because there is a bias. Sorry Ray, I’ll get out of your hair and let you get back to running your little empire.
I’m late in the discussion but for me whether or not sex occurred is less concerning that the idea that Joseph Smith could pull rank and take worthy men’s wives as his in the next life. The idea that a higher up priesthood leader can call eternal dibs on someone who is already married bothers me more than the sex. Purportedly from chapter 16 in the Joseph Smith Manual Quote:“Wilford Woodruff, the fourth President of the Church, reported: “I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made … with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. … A leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: ‘You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.’
“When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, ‘Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.’ Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the [living] oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’
Excellent points. Note from the links that some recommended that you should never confront an abuser at all and if you do you need to do so very carefully.
Quote:Perhaps it’s an opportunity to tell those leaders how this has affected you HSAB.
Thank you for framing it that way. I guess from my standpoint I view this as harmful, emotional abuse and I can’t implicitly condone it by not saying anything.
Here are a few links with different perspectives I found that could be helpful:
http://voices.yahoo.com/5-steps-confront-emotional-abuser-574403.html http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_get_an_abuser_to_recognize_the_abuse_for_what_it_is http://www.pandys.org/articles/confrontingyourabuser.html http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Should_you_confront_your_abuser I think something needs to change or you are going to have some long term negative consequences to your self-esteem and well-being.
I don’t know how to say what I have to say and stay within the confines of this forum, so I guess I’ll just say what I have to say and let the admins sort out if it is acceptable. I see what the stake president and bishop are doing to you as abusive and demeaning. They have no business going around collecting gossip on you among other things. Why are you participating in allowing them to do this to you?
This should be a wake-up call. If the church provides a spiritual home for people and is helpful to them great. However, you shouldn’t allow it to be hurtful to you – I see it causing real damage in your case and I think you should take a step back and re-evaluate things. (This doesn’t mean you can’t jump through some hoops and avoid some embarrassing situations in the mean time.)
I think I’ll jump in on this one just because my perspective is so different that others expressed here that perhaps it will be of some use to you. I don’t disrespect anyone’s belief in an afterlife – I am simply attempting to explain my perspective. I believe the afterlife is invented by humans because we fear death. Just because something can’t be proven to not exist doesn’t mean that it is likely to exist. We also can’t prove that there isn’t an alternate dimension with another us in exactly the same spot. We can’t prove that we aren’t a being named Vog’s dream.
However, I see a lot of evidence that this concept is in fact invented by humans. It is included in so many different mythologies. One could argue that is because it is a universal truth that all humans perceive. I don’t buy that.
Perhaps I am unique in this, but to me an eternal afterlife is scary – much more scary than death. The movie Groundhog’s day deals with this in a humorous way. Eternity is a really really really long time. Even in heaven I wouldn’t want to exist for eternity. To have to exist forever and to never be able to have an end scares me more than death – it would be great for a million years perhaps, but after a google years we would still have eternity left to go – ah the monotony – creepy.
Physically our memories are in our brain. The brain and how it works is getting to be understood better and better. Once the brain stops functioning those physical memories go. We have already lost most of our lives already – we only remember a small fraction of it. Many of the memories we have, have been altered by the brain – studies have found that the more we call up a memory the more it is changed. Sleep is probably the best indication of what will happen when we die. Our consciousness just ends.
What is reality is not based on what we want reality to be. If believing in something that is not reality is what someone does for comfort or for whatever reason that is fine. For me, I like to try to have the most accurate sense of reality – I suppose I like to try to understand things as they really are the best I can.
I also find that living life for this life helps me to focus on the things that are important to this life. The relationships that are important to me have to be cultivated now, because I don’t get to assume that I have all eternity to make up for any time or closeness that I miss out on in this life.
There are ways to continue to live beyond our lives. In the memories of others. In the impact we have on the world and others.
It almost seems like she was trying to tell you that her advice was not to wear your garments within the constraints that she was allowed to and could keep her job. It sounds like you are choosing the wise path!
The way I read it is that Jared had faith to see the finger (as a glimpse through the veil.) Once he saw the finger, faith became knowledge. Then the rest of the veil parted. If you were ever in a position that you were called to a church court, you could short circuit the process by resigning. Thanks to a lawsuit in the 70s the LDS church puts precedence on resignations over excommunications. In other words you can say: “You can’t fire me I quit.” I don’t know if this matters much, but it at least prevents your dirty laundry from being aired in front of about 20 people – 16 or so for your court and 4 or so for your wife’s court. This forum is probably the most liberal you can possible get and still be Mormon. Even so you have gotten several comments about going through the repentance process, it being “sad”, etc. I think that is highly indicative of just how far away this is from being compatible with Mormonism.
One could argue that had Joseph Smith survived a few more years the church would have accepted polyandry and maybe even spiritual wifery since he was certainly practicing the first, and at least Bennett was practicing the 2nd. So you may be closer to the roots of Mormonism than most would want to think about.
If this isn’t a made up story, have fun. It seems to me you are in an appropriate phase of life and your relationship is mature enough that it works for you – probably pretty rare – I know it wouldn’t work for me.
You’re already probably a step ahead of me on this, but if you are able to muster the interest to attend in the future you may just want to plan to skip high council Sunday as a rule. My experience is the high council talks tend be be the most arrogant and self-righteous. (Sometimes they are also excellent.) Perhaps not being part of the ward has something to do with it? Quote:There are too many who report they can’t get their names removed, which should be remedied.
This seems to be a lot better than it used it be – at least if you know how to do it. From what I have read if someone directly contacts church headquarters their name is removed 60 days after the request is made unless they hear from local leaders to cancel the removal. Of course very few members know to contact church headquarters – and I certainly wouldn’t expect the LDS church to advertise it.
Quote:He didn’t like my answer, but he moved on.
I’ve been told (I can’t remember if it was a member of the stake presidency or a bishop) that he was instructed to give a temple recommend if the member answers affirmatively to each of the questions even if they personally feel that the member is lying.
The only way to live with a spouse for eternity is to be sealed to them. Which of course would require baptism first. Finally found a link that pertains to this thread:
Quote:http://www.theamateurthinker.com/2011/02/how-can-we-find-truth-part-4/
