[Bear]

Oooops!

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[Bear]

Roy wrote:

Bear wrote:

In the essay about polygamy Brian hales (I assume it’s his theory) seems to make this distinction:

polyandry marriages: no sex

Polygamy marriages: sex (though not in all cases of course).

Is there really anything to back this up? It seems like a new theory that can only be found in the essay. I even remember on a Mormon stories podcast where Brian hales and other historians where on a panel discussion, that the other people in the panel were very sceptical of the Brian hales theory. Yet it is presented as a fact in the essay and that bothers me a lot.

What is the evidence for that? Any sources?

Thanks:)

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We had a discussion some years ago where Brian actually participated.

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4453&hilit=brian+hales

I disagree with the sex/no sex dichotomy because I don’t see how it matters. Suppose that John and Emily are married. JS approaches John about taking Emily as his plural wife. JS, John, and Emily agree. After the sealing ceremony John and Emily continue to live under the same roof together as man and wife in almost every respect. Why does it matter if John and Emily continued to have sex after JS and Emily were sealed? Why does polygamy make it ok for a man to have multiple sexual partners/spouses but for a woman she shall be destroyed? Maybe they envisioned some sort of overlapping marriages, why does the distinction matter?

LookingHard wrote:

This is where I am also. It feels to me that he comes from a starting point of “it is all fine, now let me see if I can find proof to support that”. So basically an apologist. He has done a TON of digging into history – I respect him for that.

I guess i think it matters because i think having many wives, and having sex with them is one thing (and yes, it is absolutely not only about sex. So many other things were SO crappy in the wake of polygamy/polyandry. I completely get and validate that. I’m just focusing on this point right now) . Marrying other peoples wives and havings sex with them is is just one step further into the “yuckyness”.

For some reason it simply leads me into the “i cannot believe JS was in any way shape or form called by any divine being to do this”-area. (a long worded area!)

I guess i just see Brian Hales trying to turn some theory that i dont really think is well founded, into a rock hard theory/line that is drawn in the essays. And that bugs me alot.

I get that there is an angle to every story but this just seems so invented, and constructed and VERY convenient for the church. And its based on an idea (polygamy=sex with JS, polyandry=no sex with JS) that seems weird and unfounded. At least in my head.

It just seems like the essays message is: “dont worry. No sex with other peoples wives. Move along”. And i just think that is an easy way out. I would love to believe it if it was backed up by many other historians, but as far as i can tell no other historian has come to the same conclusion as Brian Hales.

Thanks a lot for all the comments! I’ll re read them and comment later:)

[Bear]

I’ll find the source later and post it. Thanks for your time:)

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[Bear]

Thanks a ton for the extremely nice and uplifting words!!!

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[Bear]

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions/comments. I’ll definently look into the books etc mentioned here. THANKS!

I have had to deal with a mentally unstable spouse for a couple of years ( though she has gotten a LOT better this past year), and that has certainly put a big strain on my “take care of yourself”-effort. Having to very often bend my needs/reality to keep the family together has not been good for my self sense.

I dont feel like a pushover though, but i have a lot of empathy and can easily view things from another persons perspective. I actually feel like i have a very high sense of self esteem and a pretty big inner “core”.

The problem is actually mostly a work thing (and coincidentally in the music/audio post production area – as someone above also mentioned). I got the job as an intern and really did my best to make myself a person that they really needed, so i got the job eventually. But I feel like i’m always the underdog somehow. This has been visible in my sallary. I have had way more responsebilites/work pressure than other people on my job.

The weird thing is that this is not the first time this has happened. Happened at an earlier place as well. (Didnt start as the intern, just regular employed).

I try to do my best, tell the people above me in the “chain” that im done with whatever work and available for more work. And i ended up getting less money than others and was the first one to get fired. Really weird logic in my book.

So i guess i’ll have to learn to stand up more for myself in a work related situation. Its hard though, as you can end up losing your job..

Since writing the first post i have said yes to another job (not signed the contract yet), and i dont feel at all like the underdog this time, but i really have to pay attention to not somehow slip into that role again.

Thanks again people. I’ll check out all the things, and feel free to continue the comments!

[Bear]

Tahnks for the inputs. I’ll reply again after Christmas

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[Bear]

Thanks:)

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[Bear]

Ann wrote:

I’ve been swept up in the “tide of gay sympathy.” At least that’s what it looks like to my husband and others. But in reality I’ve been swimming for decades against the current of my own instinct to love, accept, and “do unto others.” I just got tired of it.

Bear, since you bravely started a conversation out in the open – and it seems to be going well – I hope you’ll keep it going. I’d be very interested to hear how people interact.

Well it died out after a couple of days after the policy was leaked.

And it’s all in Danish so a link wouldn’t do you any good:)

It had pretty much all sides.

Some very negative people. Some in between (me being one of them. Although I was VERY upset and angry because of the policy) and the normal churchy “everything is inspired by God!” People.

I basically gave the reasons why I had to publicly distance myself from the policy and people discussed back and forth.

I felt kind of empowered because I spoke up. I NEVER ever do any religious posts. Even people from work liked some of my posts and I’m very private about my beliefs. (Religion is often a personal matter in Denmark).

I got one mail though. From one of the the higher ranks in the church saying some things that weren’t down right bad or anything but still made me feel very bad. He said that I have to make sure that my little brother (who is in the pre missionary age and getting ready) shouldn’t have to choose between me and Thomas s monson. In my book that is a pretty narrow minded view but we are all entitled to our opinions. I send him a very loving and understanding mail back and we ended on a good note. My little brother on the other hand was kind of offended that people didn’t think he could make his own choices.

I was kind of shocked, realizing how much other church people’s opinions of me, mattered to me. Didn’t think it would make such a deep impact but I was a nervous wreck for a couple of days because of showing my true colors and getting som negative (and positive) feedback.

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[Bear]

Thanks a lot everyone. Will check it out!

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[Bear]

Keep up the good work bill!

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[Bear]

Thanks. I wanted to talk about more controversial stuff but there was an investigator there plus I was super tired (slept horribly) and didn’t really feel on top of things.

I talked a little about seer stones and divining rods and that God uses where we are geographically and culturally.

We should always question the waters we swim in including our own religious life and even the church we live in. Always follow JS example of questioning and thereby remaining spiritually curious no matter what the source.

There is no middle man between us and God. No bishop of GA but only us and God. I guess that was the main points. I don’t know if people felt that boat was rocket but I tried to:)

Thanks for the suggestions.

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[Bear]

Good advise, that i plan on following:) I think i’ll mention some things about JS being the village seer along with seerstone etc. The conclusion will be that God uses all of us wherever we are in our culture etc.

Also that the first vision shows that we should always question status quo in our own lives and in the church and look for further ligth and knowledge.

Thanks

[Bear]

Giving a new lesson.

The subject is:

Chapter 7: Joseph Smith, an Instrument in the Hands of the Lord

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-ezra-taft-benson/chapter-7-joseph-smith-an-instrument-in-the-hands-of-the-lord?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-ezra-taft-benson/chapter-7-joseph-smith-an-instrument-in-the-hands-of-the-lord?lang=eng

Uplifting but still rocking the boat is the goal:)

I personally plan on talking a little bit about different versions of the first vision. The rest im planning looking at later today.

The lesson in manual is VERY straight forward.

Any thoughts?

Thanks:)

And remember, this thread is not only for me, everyone could write here if they need help with any given lesson/talk.

🙂

[Bear]

Just saw the Saturday evening session and was absolutely floored with how great it was. Didn’t expect that. Christoffersson talk was good and balanced even though I might not agree with the church’s present view on homosexuality. I like that he had such a calm demeanor and didn’t seem preaching at all. The ending talk by cook was standard stuff (dare I say boring) but the 3 talks in between (all by 70s afair) were nothing less than amazing to me. They seemed so genuine and humble and to use scriptural terms: without guile.

Super thoughtful, loving and filled with positivity.

Super super stuff. I thought the talks were all beautiful and inspireded me to often forget all the questions and focus on being Christlike instead.

Wowzers.

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[Bear]

I used to be kind of obsessed with the book of Abraham questions. Still am a bit but ACTIVELY drop the whole thing for a while. Do what you can to take it slow. Believe me it helps a lot. Play computer games. Visit friends. Look at silly animals doing silly things on YouTube or whatever. Actively do something for a couple of days just to relax. This will be a long and very exiting journey for you and you can’t know everything right a way.

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