Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine cwald- I hope things work out well. I don’t know if this will help but I have attached a link to the Church’s website, on approaching Mormon doctrine. Here are a few of the highlights to help show as members we are free to have our own opinions and still have agency.
“Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together.”
“Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.”
I know that now that Costa and Oaks reiterated the ideas in Benson’s talk the last statement may not hold as much water in the eyes of your SP, BP and HC. But at least the document makes it clear that these guys are not always speaking for the lord and sometimes (most the time) are talking for themselves.
The Church’s Official stance is “Don’t quote me on this, I could be wrong”
I hope things go well for you. I have appreciated your views and comments. By choosing to stay you have helped me.
Cwald- Trek is definitely a Utah thing. I had no idea what it was until I moved to Utah and they called me as a trail boss. For those uninitiated Trek is when all the youth in the Stake head to the Wyoming plains, dress up like pioneers and pull handcarts for a few days. Butters- I would definitely participate again. The way it was structured in our stake only the MA’s and PA’s had a lot of interaction with the kids. The rest of the support staff hung out and had a great time without the stress of trying to keep the kids from sleeping with each other.
There was definitely an attempt to manufacture spiritual experiences for the kids some worked (the woman’s pull) and some did not (blessing and burying a doll on the side of the trail, this one was really weird). I think it would be great to be in a position to influence what goes on in Trek. You could get rid off some of the weird stuff. Most of the kids were there to have a good time and hang out. It was the adults and leaders that were trying to make it spiritual. The kids I talked with brought up when they thought the adults were trying too hard.
On a side note on Trek 5 years earlier our current SP was the trail boss and they were caught in a very big rain storm. The Stake in Evanston, WY came in with buses and drove them to the Stake Center. The stake talks like this was our Martin and Willie’s handcart experience. So jump forward 5 years to our Trek and the SP during his prayer before we all get on the bus to leave brings this up and says something to the effect of “God give us your worst we can handle it”. The kids all thought he was crazy and made fun of it the entire trip. The SP got wind of the kids mocking him and during his talk at the post fireside publicly chastised those that made fun of him. It was great, one of those really uncomfortable times in church that we all look forward to to break up the staleness.
Sorry for the tangent. If you have time I would participate again. Don’t worry about the spiritual part it was easy enough for me to leave that to others. With the cooking responsibilities you will be too busy to worry about it. Think of it as a fun camping trip rather than some weird pilgrimage.
I am not sure God helps any of us in the way we are told he will. There is an inherent conflict between our own personal agency (the reason we are all here) and the intervention of God in our lives. For example the other week I was chastised by my family for not fasting so that my brother-in-law could get a new job. My thinking is why would God help Charlie get a new job because we fasted? what if the other guy’s family fasted? are we more righteous? God can’t intervene or he takes away our agency or in this case the agency of the person doing the hiring. I don’t believe God acts on anyone’s behalf. We are all blessed and we are all cursed. It is our choice on how we see ourselves in this life. We can focus on our “blessings”, whatever they are, or we can focus on our curses. What we decide to focus on will dictate how our life goes and whether or not we realize more “blessings”.
IMO, the reason so many of us state that we are more blessed today than we were in our TBM days is because we no longer feel the pull of the carrot and stick the Church/ members feed us. Once you are able to remove the need to “earn” blessings you can free you mind to recognize the blessings that you already have.
SD- I feel for you I get the headshake from time to time when I teach GD. Something that has worked for me is I have gone out of my way to point out when the class has different thoughts on the same topic. It has taken a couple years but I now have a very open class. The lesson that helped me point out that every member views God differently was one Sunday I scrapped the lesson from the manual and asked the class one question. Why do you love Jesus? Everyone had a different answer and we talked about everyones answer and how it was wonderful that God and the gospel mean different things to each of us and yet we can all worship together.
The lesson was really powerful. I even had class members share their answers in testimony meeting because they did not get a chance in class. The class still talks about the lesson and the class has become much more tolerant of each other. I still get the head shake from time to time but the class is much more open to discussing different ideas. I am not sure this helps but I think if you can slowly change the culture of the class the class will take care of the headshakers for you.
Cwald- I have read both copies and what is being discussed is in volume 2. Volume 2 discusses the worthiness issue regarding preforming ordinances as well as the WoW. I think you will be happy to know that under the WoW it says nothing of beer and I find the wording on “hot drinks” very interesting. I think it leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I also went to volume 1 and looked at requirements for a temple recommend and it says to refer to the temple recommend book for questions. It also states that they are not to deviate from the questions.
My only point was that I think this is a step forward by the Church. I also think it is worth saying that as with all things Church this only has as much power as you give it.
I talked with a couple friends who attended the training and they shared Ray’s opinions. They both felt like for the first time the Church was attempting to address real issues and give individuals more autonomy in their religious lives. I have some real trust issues with the Church but I think it is only fair to give them credit when they make a positive step forward no matter how small it is.
I just learned that the Church has posted the training and volume 2 of the CHI on its website for all to see. We can all watch the training and view the book and make up our own minds. Molly, Welcome to the forum.
Old-Timer wrote:Think seriously about what “observant” shared. Many moderate cases of depression and anxiety manifest themselves in excessive feelings of guilt. It certainly would be worth investigating, imo. (and, as I’ve said at many sites, medication properly used should be seen as a wonderful gift and blessing – not stigmatized in any way)
I agree completely with Ray and Observant.
I would also add, that talk therapy with a professional therapist could be very helpful. Shop around and find one that works for you. The church can recommend one for you but with your feelings it could work better to find a therapist outside the church. There are pros and cons to both a Mormon/ non-Mormon therapist. I think it is most important to find someone who works well with you and you feel comfortable with. I know that this has helped several of my loved ones that have dealt with difficulties.
Also, I would like to recommend a book that helped change my life. It is by Cheryl Carson titled “Forgiveness: The Healing Gift We Give Ourselves” A lot of the book is about forgiving others but it also discusses the importance of forgiving ourselves. I have learned that feelings and believes only have as much power as I give them.
Again, welcome and I hope you can find some help here and peace your life.
Have any of you had any conversations with TBM friends or family members about the changes? If so 1) how have they gone?
2) what have their reactions been?
I have only had one conversation and I found it odd that the person was more concerned about the removal that stated the Proclamation on the Family was revelation than they on the other changes.
I have seen the changes in the talk as a small personal victory because I have been chastised by family members for saying that I can pick and choose what I believe when it comes to what the GA’s say.
I think this is a great topic. SilentDawning, I share a lot of the same fears and concerns. I have been battling this all week. I feel like I am comfortable with who I am on some level but maybe not ready to tell the world all my thoughts. I am comfortable enough to wear sandals church, even while teaching GD. I feel comfortable enough to change the lessons when they don’t fit my beliefs. I have even had one gentleman in an opening pray for my class ask that I would give the correlated message. I have always had the opinion of “What are they going to do ask me to not come back?” I feel like I have always been respectful and I am always willing to help out so I think they are comfortable with me. But I also don’t go out of my way to tell other everything I think.
This has been a big problem for me this week. With Packer’s talk and all of the media surrounding it I have been very agitated. I have had a few neighbors post some hateful and uneducated comments on Facebook about gays because of Packer’s talk. I have been torn all week on how to respond to the people I live near and worship with when I really don’t agree with what they are saying. I wanted to confront them on Facebook but have not because I am afraid of the outcome or fallout. I live in Utah and my ward is only 4 blocks square.
Although I really don’t think they would ask to not come back however I too am afraid that if I am too vocal I may be marginalized at church and in the neighborhood, I have seen this happen. I am afraid of loosing my calling, it is the one thing I really enjoy about church. I am also concerned about how my actions can affect my wife and children with their friends. I think if I felt marginalized I would stop going to church and I really don’t want this to happen.
At the same time I feel like I have a responsibility to stand up for what I think is right. I guess this week has shown me that there is a limit to what I am willing to share and with who. I am not sure how I feel about this because it has consumed me this week. Maybe this will be the trigger for me to feel more comfortable with who I am and what others think of me.
Thanks for the great topic.
Hawkgrrrl- Thank you for your reply. I have ordered the book I will let you know what I think.
Hawkgrrrl wrote:the good men (I would say people but who are we kidding?)
This may be a post for another day but I have a lot of concern about where my daughter is going to fit into Mormonism. She is only 3 but has already been told by her nursery leader that her sleeveless dress does not “show respect.” I know I should turn the other cheek but sometimes I can’t help but be frustrated. Thanks for welcoming me.Bridget, Thank you for sharing. I actually taught a GD lesson about a month ago when I shared a similar message about Joseph Smith and Jesus. I did not us the phase “coming out”, although the discussion may have been more lively if I had. I said they were “innovators” and did not conform to the status quo. Part of my message was that we all need to always question what we are being told just as they did and seek to understand what God truly wants for us.
I believe that we as men have polluted the gospel of Christ with our own beliefs and prejudices. And the only way to truly become a disciple of Christ is to follow the two great commandments, to love God and to love our fellow man. It has helped me a lot when I don’t agree with what I am being told to remember Romans 13:8 “…but to love one another: for he that loveth another have fulfilled the law.”
