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AmyJ wrote:
In addition, there is a lovely sister who adores it when we sit next to her – she needs grandchilden to adopt, and I need someone to sit with, to hug me, and help contain the toddler.
We had this experience at the beginning of my FC, with the addition that she was at the time investigating. She was there every Sunday, which made leaving much harder till we moved away- and I admire her faith and conviction, especially after a lifetime of experience, difficult family, etc. She’s been baptized since, and is very active.
I admire you going when it would be so difficult, and I definitely see the reasons to stay. That’s what led me here in the first place!
With my son, leaving was important for us. My family has a strong history of suicidality, with a few completed incidents. I grew up knowing the word, the warning signs, and the emergency procedure for suicidality from a young age- too young. Mixing that mental health genetics with a difficult culture is too scary for us.
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Mama Dragons has been amazing at helping families and mothers specifically navigate supporting their queer kids, no matter the existing relationship with the church. They are doing holy work- and absolutely saving lives. AmyJ wrote:
I personally don’t see why you have to move on (but that is just me wanting you to stay). I think that Staying LDS is equally a matter of the mind and heart as it is a technicality.
First, you’re one of my favorite people on the forum- I stalk your posts! *fangirl*
I think that when asked what religion I am, I would answer, “I grew up Mormon, but now we aren’t religious.” Since my last few posts, my belief system has changed pretty drastically, due to a lot of discussions with my husband, meditation, prayer, and study. The past 6 months I’ve only been attending church to support my family, continue faith traditions, participate in community, etc. I don’t feel LDS anymore in mind or heart. However, I feel like being part of this forum has continued benefits, including associating with lovely folks like yourselves
Roy wrote:
I believe that the primary benefits of religion are community, purpose, belonging, and meaning. Unfortunately, those benefits can be weoponized against those that do not fit in (especially in the sexuality, marriage, and family department). Exclusion, adrift, out of place, feeling like a mistake, without “root or branch” in mortality or eternity can be soul destroying. I fully respect your decision to do what is best for your son. I do not know your situation and that of your extended family. I hope that you and your son still have the support and belonging of extended family even without church involvement.
Thank you so much for your support and respect! (and you are one of my favorite people on the forum, as well- I geek out anytime one of my favorites interacts with me!)
I agree with your list of benefits. As a family and as individuals, we’ve found many of those benefits outside of church in different organizations and activities. My oldest eats, breathes, and lives musical theater, trains search and rescue dogs with my husband, and is heavily involved in school organizations as well as LGBTQ groups in the community. He hasn’t believed in church teachings for a few years, but has been a good sport spending time with us in our faith tradition up until this point, despite feeling outcast and being a target for unkind and ignorant remarks from LDS youth.
Our decision to “step back” has been so healthy for as a family and as individuals. I especially think it helped strengthen our relationship with our oldest when he is at his most vulnerable. Out of our 4 kids, only 1 was even slightly disappointed about us leaving (our newest baptized, social butterfly, cries when she misses school kid). I had a pretty frank and loving talk about the reasons we decided to leave- and while she doesn’t know about her brother’s orientation yet, she was dismayed that nontraditional families don’t have equal standing in all churches, and horrified that our church was one of them. Everyone seems delighted that church has been replaced by acts of service, family bike rides, and spending time in the sunshine.
Edit: I just watched the video- it was beautiful and well done!
I am a new Mama Dragon. My son came out to us a few months ago, and a friend told me about the group.
My son coming out was huge in connection with my church involvement. My last real reason to stay- a good place to raise families- became my first strong reason to leave. Our records are still there, but we aren’t anymore. His life depended on it.
I’ve been meaning to write a post here about it, but I’m not ready to say goodbye to this forum, even though I’m saying goodbye to the church. This forum has been a really good resource for me in talking to friends and family, helping me sort out my thoughts, and see new perspectives.
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AmyJ wrote:For me, living my life as if God was not part of the equation (either because of non-existence or being more hands-off and letting us have the space to grow) has made me think about what it means to be a good person, and how to choose to be a better person from a values/ethics perspective.
I love this, and I totally agree. My husband and I were just talking about this last night- and loving humans because we should, not because of promise of reward or fear of punishment.
And if God does exist in the way we’ve been taught, I think he’d be pleased by our motivations as much as the actions themselves.
Great thoughts! [emoji173]️
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Sorry it’s been so long since I posted- thank you for your responses! I love love love all of them. I’ll jump on my computer tomorrow and address each more directly, plus contribute my own. [emoji173]️ Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Old Timer wrote:Dande48 is correct about the doctrinal result of ending up in a lower kingdom, if membership is not restored, but, if we are being technical and precise, Dehlin was flat-out wrong to call it being “condemned to Hell”. First, lots of people come back I to the LDS Church after excommunication, and that alone contradicts the condemnation part. Second, using the word “Hell” conjures all kinds of images and assumptions for nearly all other Christians that we don’t teach at all. I am not saying a full doctrinal treatise would have been better, but a tiny attempt for basic clarity would have been much, much better. It isn’t hard to do.
When dealing with topics like this, where we define something so differently than others, precision is important – and “condemned to Hell” is WAY too broad and inaccurate to be helpful
Looks like we had similar thoughts, you hit the nail on the head
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dande48 wrote:So I’d be willing to say, according to Church doctrine, excommunication is a condemnation to hell (meaning spirit prison and a lower kingdom), which can only be reversed through repentance, re-baptism and the restoration of blessings. There are some technicalities I’m sure I’m missing, but I’d say that’s the general rule.
That’s fair. But I think taking his audience into account is important for context here. Dehlin isn’t addressing Mormons here who know the concept of a lower kingdom and spirit prison isn’t the fire and brimstone that most non-Mormons associate with ‘hell’, but a general audience whose idea of hell is one of eternal suffering. That’s the impression I got, at least.
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Yeah- it made sense to utilize him, I just didn’t like how he handled it. I disagree with him on what excommunication means, in particular. He said it’s a condemnation to hell, which I don’t think there’s any doctrinal support of. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
DarkJedi wrote:The documentary about Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons. I watched it and liked it. A major premise is that we need more voices and I agree. I also cried at a couple of the teen suicide stories. Even if the Utah higher suicide rate has not actually increased or is not due to the church’s LGBTQ stance, even one is one too many.
I think regardless of policies, the people within Utah need to be asking why the rate is higher (according to WHO it has increased, I’m not sure what other statistics there are to give a different view).
I think anytime an organization makes a stance, its members use that stance as permission to be hateful- we see it in political parties too.
This attitude influences so much of church culture, especially in areas with a dense population of LDS. I’ve seen it in my own circle, with people I love.
When the news article recently came out about family search enabling same sex marriage to be recorded, one of my family members (along with several other people) commented on the article saying they didn’t believe it and wouldn’t believe it until they heard the first presidency comment on it.
In Believer, Dan Reynolds claimed that the LoveLoud event wasn’t selling tickets, when other Imagine Dragons concerts have sold out so quickly. After the church released a statement in support of the concert, ticket sales went way up.
I’ve felt this same need for ‘permission’ from the church in the past. I think the church has been making improvements in recommending love, but there are many members who will continue to give themselves permission to be bigoted as long as policies and doctrine conflict with that recommendation for love towards our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.
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LookingHard wrote:I don’t have an HBO subscription, but I may just join HBOgo for a month so I can watch this on my computer.
That’s what I did. They have a 2 week free trial.
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I haven’t seen a thread on it, I’ll have to look. I don’t think blame is a useful concept in any death. My family is deeply affected by suicide, and no matter what, a family will always ask why, what could we have done differently, etc.
I didn’t feel like Believer was blaming family at all. I didn’t love the section with John Dehlin, as I felt like he exaggerated and demonized church policies more than necessary. But overall I felt like it was not placing blame as much as highlighting the need for change, if that makes sense.
I watched it with my 13 year old with louts of pausing to talk, I want to rewatch it without pausing. I do feel like Dan Reynolds emphasized his love for the church throughout it, though.
Heber13 wrote:BeJoyful wrote:
I saw this- lots of good things in it. I do agree though- they’re avoiding a cause and talking about a symptom.Have you watched “Believer”? It came out last week on HBO. I think Dan Reynolds did an excellent job for the most part.
I haven’t seen it but saw DJ started a thread on it.
It’s a sad topic.
And to add blame and judgment to it seems to hurt the suffering family more.
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I saw this- lots of good things in it. I do agree though- they’re avoiding a cause and talking about a symptom. Have you watched “Believer”? It came out last week on HBO. I think Dan Reynolds did an excellent job for the most part.
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Can’t read through the thread because I’m on the run, but I believe WGU has your program. It’s all online, work at your own pace, and cheap. I got my degree last year, it was a great school for me. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Only Love wrote:Hello! I am so excited to officially join this community. I’ve been reading (okay, devouring) posts on here for a few months and I have been blown away by the love and wisdom in this community. I’m at a point in my journey where I feel a great desire to connect with like-minded (and “like-hearted”) people so I am so grateful to have found this forum.
Okay, about me… I’m in my early thirties, Mom to 3 young kids, living in a conservative area of the “mission field”
I grew up in an extremely orthodox, TBM family. Though I grew up in a place without very many Mormons, I very much took on that TBM identity for myself and prided myself on doing everything right.
Your story and journey are just so similar to mine- it’s like you’re writing my story. I’m new here, only 5 or 6 months of posting, a little more than a year observing. Welcome!
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Rumin8 wrote:It really is a travesty that we all focus so much on what I call the so-called “visible“ sins. Such as WoW, Sunday activities, and in this case, tatoos.
Right? Especially since the visible “sins” are often the least offensive to God, and the judging is far worse. From what I can understand.
Rumin8 wrote:
The one specific item I mentioned to my bishop was that the first time I hear that I’m on a ward council list is the last time he’ll see me on the list. Oops. Probably tipped my hand on that one.Ha! You might have!
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