[believeroftruth]

silverboh wrote:

I am 27 years old. My wife and I have 2 boys who are a handful, but worth every minute of craziness we have at our house.

Hey me too, except they are girls. Welcome

[believeroftruth]

Maybe one solution for the church, and I am just thinking here, would be for the church to have a “self referral” program. There are programs such as this in the organization I work for and they work splendidly.

The idea of this program is that a person who is an addict can go and speak to a counselor in complete confidentiality, with the promise of no negative repercussions.

What if the church could have a program like this? I think many times people are afraid to seek help because they don’t want everyone to know they have a problem (this would be more hidden addictions like pornography, for others like drug addiction I’m pretty sure lots of people know already.)

But what if the church had a program such as this where a person who truly felt sorrow for what they had done, wants to change, but just can’t overcome the addiction and doesn’t want grandma to find out that he/she is not walking the line? Would a program like this work in the church? Or do most of you feel that their sins must be brought before the council?

My opinion is that it would work and would be a great blessing to many members. The addict would have the promise that their sins would not leave the room unless they specifically gave permission, and they would have the benefit of a counselor who is a member of the church who understands their dillema, shares the same faith and wants to help them change.

What do you all think?

[believeroftruth]

HiJolly wrote:

This kind of questioning is natural and an essential part of Stage 4 existence, IMO. The real issue is that your confidence in the truth-claims of the Institution is in trouble, and this influences your confidence in everything the institution of the Church does, how it does it, why it does it, etc. Do you agree?

That is absolutely correct. I am questioning wether it really is necessary to confess before a man. I do see your point that you make here:

HiJolly wrote:

We all know that when we join a club or other socially organized effort, we give up certain ‘freedoms’ to be a part of the whole. For example, if I don’t pay my annual dues, then I am barred from participation in the Scottish Rite Research Society, and I don’t get the annual issue of Heredom, etc.

It seems to me that this simple reality is terribly complicated by the nature of the Institution that we’re talking about here, which is the Church. Which, in the minds of most of its membership, high and low, is in charge of the salvation and spiritual development of it’s membership. While as a mystic I don’t believe that this is literally the way of it, yet in the social and ecclesiastical setting of the Church all its membership are obligated to see it so. And in that setting, I agree that it is so. This is why we agree to be baptized. Why we agree to attend meetings, partake of the Sacrament, sustain our Bishop, and so forth. We give up a degree of personal autonomy when we join the Church in order to gain from the many benefits of the whole.

Although I see your point I disagree with what you said. I see from a church organizational standpoint why there must be order among the ranks because the church is a unique organization in that there is no professional clergy. In various other churches, people only come to hear the word and learn, they have no position of any kind other than student and adherant. so this kind of system allows for a person to not be in good standing with the faith.

But as we all know our church is different in that we, the common layman are called to act as professional clergy, which requires that one be living in accordance with the rules. I do thinnk that the churches system is beautiful in that we all serve in our different capacities and work together to lead, teach and edify one another. However I do feel that most of the time the quality of sermons and lessons suffer greatly due to the lack of a professional clergy, but that is a discussion for another day. So from this perspective I do see your point.

But I was approaching the question more from a spiritual perspective. Are we not all imperfect anyways, and can you really rate ‘badness’ of sin on a scale? Obviously murder is an exception, but other than that sin is sin and I believe to God there is no difference. So my question then is, If we all fall short anyways, if we are all imperfect people serving and striving to become better, than why is it necessary to go and confess before another sinner just so that he can change your status in the organization. My point is that it really accomplishes nothing to disfellowship or excommunicate a person. Do you really think that a person who willingly commited a sin and then felt no remorse is going to feel any differently because he/she is disfellowshipped and can’t enjoy all of the rites of full membership? Or on the other side of the coin if a person simply made a mistake and they truly feel sorry for having fallen short and offended God, will they not already feel like they have missed the mark and are not worthy of all the blessings of full membership? It does not require a church court to tell the person to repent and change. Why is it necessary to set a period of time? Does it really make a difference if a person feels Godly sorrow and truly repentant for one hour or for one year? I believe that God judges the heart and if a person truly felt the anguish and sorrow for having offended God, then that is good enough for him and he will extend his mercy to them, if they ask.

I am focusing not on the organizational necessity of confessing, but on the spiritual. Further more a person can experience true spirituality and a real relationship with God even if they never step foot inside of a church.

HiJolly wrote:

I am puzzled by this question, BoT. Surely you know the stock answer. A member cannot break the rules of an institution without consequences, or the institution would dissolve into chaos and be destroyed, or at least be rendered useless.

Why would it be rendered useless? Is anyone perfect in this organization? We all miss the mark and break the rules in our own way. And the institution continues to stand strong. The church is made of imperfect people striving to become like Christ.

HiJolly wrote:

Because they have agreed to the social constraints of the Church. For the mutual benefit of both.

Whatever happened to the buffet idea? Once one has progressed from TBM to enlightened understanding does one not take the good (for each person it will be different) and leave the not so good ideas?

[believeroftruth]

This is the essence of what Jesus came to the world to teach us. Christ came of course to fulfill his Atonement, but just as important, he came to show us how we should live our lives in order to become the people that God would have us be. Jesus did nothing in his life but bless the lives of others and that is how we should strive to be. I’m pretty sure we all understand that when we die and are being judged, the only thing that is really going to matter is how much we forgot about our own desires and focused on helping and serving others.

It is easy to understand that we need to be charitable, but I struggle with how to actually feel it and do it. I struggle a lot with my feelings for other people, sadly I have a tendency to think negatively of others and this is something that I am trying to overcome. Hopefully one day I can practice what I understand already. Thankfully through all of this growing and ‘enlightening’ that I am going through I feel that I have made some definite progress. Sadly when I was TBM I used to feel superior to others when their level of commitment wasn’t the same as mine. When I think back to those feelings now, I feel horrible inside. What a horrible thing to do. That is the complete opposite of charity. I hope God will continue to help me change and help me to TRULY love others and want to spend my life in the service of others.

[believeroftruth]

Thank you for this Ray. It truly helps to put what is most important into perspective.

[believeroftruth]

So a couple of weeks have passed now since I first shared my doubts with my wife and I am happy to report that the outcome has progressed to a level that has surprised me.

My wife although broken hearted for a couple of weeks has said she has accepted the situation and is ready to progress forward with me on this new journey. She has been very understanding and the last couple of days we have sat together and had some real meaningful, intelligent and productive discussions. She has agreed to try to understand my vewpoint by looking a little more closely into the “warts” and I have agreed that I will continue to attend church with her (I didn’t want to leave, but my desire for commitment was minimal) and that I will not give up praying for answers.

There is a wonderful feeling around here now that we are both commited to this journey together. I appreciate everyone’s comments and suggestions. They have helped immensely. I know it will still be difficult for her, but she is an intelligent loving person and is going into this with an open mind, (as evidenced by our discussions yesterday and today.)

I will keep everyone updated on how her and I are progressing and look forward to receiving and hopefully one day giving support from this staylds community. Thank you my friends.

[believeroftruth]

Thank you all for the replies. I will try to address each of your replies. (Divided into paragraphs this time, Thanks for fixing the last one Ray. I know it was a mess)

First of all HiJolly, I don’t know what exactly you are getting at by asking why it took me 6 months to read the BOM. It did indeed. Remember that I was 18 at the time and although I wanted to know the truth 18 year olds usually have other things going on that they think are more important. I am sure you meant nothing by that comment, but it just came across as being offensive to me. I’m sorry if I misinterpreted. And yes I was indeed taking God at his word that he would cause my bosom to burn within me in regards to the truthfulness of Mormonism. I was not looking for thunder and lightning, I don’t think I was expecting too much. I was just looking for the experience that God had promised.

Johndehlin. Thank you. I do feel welcomed.

Bill Atkinson. Thank you very much for your understanding and sorrowing with me. Music is certainly an extremely powerful medium and I believe brings out our emotions, good or bad like nothing else can. I definitely understand that the spirit speaks in a still small voice. I believe I have felt it many times, but never in response to my specific question wether this is the ONLY true church on the earth. in Moroni’s promise and in D&C 9, The Lord makes a promise that your bosom shall burn and you will know. The formula seems so simple, but it never worked for me. Perhaps I was asking the wrong question. My question had always been, “is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the only true church on the earth???” I am not expecting an earthquake or an angel to descend from above, but I have indeed been expecting this “burning” which has never come in response to that specific question. This is what has led me to this point. As I mentioned in my introduction, I do not believe the answer to this question will ever come as I had expected it to. The answer I feel I have received is that there is not only one truth. Yes there are universal truths, and religion is a pursuit of these truths. We all interpret them differently and in our own individual way. I believe that is the way God intended it to be or else we would not grow like we do when we pursue truth for ourselves. I believe God wants the search for truth to be an individual endeavor rather than an institutionalized teaching. The one single most important universal truth that I have found is that we must all strive to forget ourselves and dedicate our lives to serving others. I can honestly say that I have felt God (whoever or whatever he/she/it may be) speak to me and give understanding to my mind, so I believe I do know what it feels like to hear the “still small voice.” My point was not that I have never felt God touch my heart, but that the answer to that specific question never came.

Tom. What a journey it’s been so far. Hopefully we can all contribute to each other and collectively progress to whatever the end is for each of us.

Swimordie. I have lately been questioning the same thing as you believe. Wether or not we really feel an external power when we feel the “spirit” or wether we want to believe in something so badly that somehow physiologically we create powerful feelings within ourselves. However, there are a couple of experiences I have had which I hold very sacred where I am sure that some external force far greater than I can imagine gave me peace and comfort. I would definitely agree though that many times we create our own inner peace by believing or wanting to believe in something so strongly. Our minds are extremely powerful and do create chemical and physical reactions inside of us. I appreciate your suggestions on how to reconcile this situation with my wife. She, and my children are certainly the most important things in the world to me. I believe we too will find a way to accept each others differences and both of us will grow from this experience.

Pinkpatent thank you for sharing your experience with me. I appreciate your encouragement and advice. Somehow I know we will make it through this and come to a “happy place” together. I know that she loves me wholeheartedly which is why this is so heartbreaking for her. I feel bad for what I am doing to her and can’t help but think that she would not have chosen me had I had these same problems years ago. Our love for each other is strong though and will carry us through.

Poppyseed. I too feel the BOM does contain wonderful principles to live by. And though I question the “official” version of it’s coming to light, I believe brother Joseph was inspired, wether he wrote it or translated it, to bring it to the world. Much like Buddha, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Wesley, Luther, Calvin, Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger, Tommy Monson and many more. I believe they are all among the prophets and all contributed and contribute to increase our understanding of God’s plan. I do believe the church is TRUE, but I believe it is one of the true churches. I also believe that Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Spritism,Ba’hai’s, Christianity in general(Baptists, Evangelicals, Catholics, Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses)etc are all God’s true church. All give different perspectives and unique insights on God’s plan for us. We must take the truth from wherever it comes and incorporate it into our lives.

Valoel. Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. I read the forum linked by Ray and found it extremely helpful. I still kind of feel wrong saying, “by the power of the Melchizedek priesthood which I hold” though. I very much enjoyed the posting, it may have even been yours, I don’t remember for sure, about how if I believe it and they believe it that it then becomes a special spritual experience for both of us, and I can then indeed act as an “agent” of God to help bring peace to their hearts and minds.

Orson. Thank you as well for your encouragement that we can and will make it through this. I believe we will as well. My wife after all is an extremely loving and understanding person. I hope she can say the same thing about me. I know I have broken her heart. I will tread slowly and carefully, but will be completely open and honest with her as you have suggested. It wouldn’t be fair to lead her on. She asked me to be completely honest and hold nothing back from her so that she can process it all and then decide how she is going to process it and work through this. What a wonderful person huh??

We will make it through. Thank you for your comments. I read your introduction and thought it was very powerful, moving, and enlightening.

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