[benbritton]

Darkjedi, I don’t want to pretend to interpret your experience without really hearing it, however your comment about Satan really stuck out to me. I’ve learned from personal experience that Satan can counterfeit spiritual experiences in very convincing ways. Jesus Christ said that even the “elect” can be deceived. D&C 128 referenced a story where Michael has to pay Joseph a visit to intervene and stop an attempted deception by Satan. Hiram Page, Oliver Cowdery and the entire Whitmer family where deceived by Hiram Page’s revelation (and Oliver Cowdery was next in line to the prophet, had seen angels, served as scribe for the majority of the book of mormon, etc.). These are just a few examples off the top of my head. Satan can interact with us, and he often deceives people through both subtle and powerful displays and interactions.

I’ve applied the advice given in section 50 of D&C, and I pray about my spiritual experiences to confirm that they are indeed of God and not of my own or even Satan’s creation. There have been times when God has clearly shown me that Satan was trying deceived me. Generally, I find that Heavenly Father responds with a more powerful response or multiple responses and also helps me understand the danger of where Satan’s deception was leading, which in my experience clears up any confusion as to which message is coming from where.

[benbritton]

I’m also cautious of equating emotion with spiritual experience. I have found that a feeling of inner peace and quiet is consistently associated with sacred experiences. I find that a sudden burst of emotion (the kind that leads to tears) by itself is not a reliable indicator of interaction with the Spirit or God. I know this kind of thing is personal and subjective, but I have observed these patterns consistently in my own experience.

I agree that we are all given different gifts, and our expectations need to be tempered by that fact. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have high aspirations and goals though! I enjoy my spiritual life so much more when I’m aiming high. I think it’s also strengthening to hear the sacred, significant experiences of people we really trust.

[benbritton]

Thanks, Cwald. That’s fun to hear. I teach music and I have taught lecture classes so I can certainly relate.

[benbritton]

I realize this is an aging conversation, but I wanted to address the fact that these things happen to some and don’t happen to others.

I don’t know how familiar everyone on this board is with near death experiences, but I have found they can teach some important principles. I don’t necessarily prescribe to any specific near death experience, however there are concepts that come up repeatedly in near death experiences across cultures, religions, and age groups. One of these is the principle that God uses the various things in our lives to teach us specifically what we need to grow. Essentially, some of life experience is shared because we all learn what we need from it, but each unique trial and blessing is turned to our benefit. Not that everything is necessarily predestined, but God uses each situation to teach us despite our good use or misuse of free will.

I find that principle consistent with the Mormon understanding of this life, consistent with my personal experience with God, and a principle that can explain why one person might have a certain type of spiritual experience and another doesn’t. It also helps answer the question of whether the father changed the fate of his son in that given situation. I believe that our prayers have the potential to change outcomes, but beyond that Heavenly Father provides us with situations to learn from. If the dad had not listened to the prompting to pray, would he have learned an essential life lesson through a different outcome or through the same outcome despite not acting on a spiritual prompting? Would the son have learned what he needed to through death or through continuing his life despite his dad’s lack of action? I believe the answer to those questions and other similar ones are the most telling in what the outcome might have been if the father had not acted on his prompting.

[benbritton]

Thanks, Ann.

[benbritton]

Acknowledged and agreed.

I was also really happy to hear Pres. Uchtdorf addressing those whose “search for truth” cause their doubts. His address will hopefully create a feeling of belonging for some who have felt rejection in the past.

[benbritton]

Old-Timer wrote:

I just need to point out that we need to be sensitive to people who don’t have spiritual anchors (for various reasons, including, “God maketh no such thing known unto us.”) and recognize the additional difficulty they face in a church that emphasizes spiritual anchors.

Good point. Sorry, if that came off as insensitive. I guess I should take a moment and recognize that I’ve experienced a number of different ways to deal with challenges to my faith, spiritual anchors being a solid one, but only one of them. My trust in Richard G. Scott’s testimony of his own powerful experiences (which I heard in person on my mission) has often helped me through difficult times. Sometimes just hoping and wanting the teachings of the church to be true has been an important part of holding on. I felt like when I acknowledged to God and myself that sometimes I could only hope it to be true and I didn’t feel I had much more to go on than that, I began to feel less dependent on my self and others, which seems to serve as another coping mechanism. In finding a little peace, I shouldn’t forget all the helps along the way.

[benbritton]

Thanks, Roy. I think spiritual anchors (experiences and answers to prayers) are really important. I feel like they can hold open the space we need to nurture our faith where even great logical arguments and evidences don’t always consistently fight off our doubt.

[benbritton]

It sounds like your 11 year old is onto a very important concept, and part of that is that spiritual truth can be found in every religion and culture in the world, spiritual truth being factual principles that lead people closer to God or, in other words, help them become better people, more able to help others and in tune with God’s will. That being said, how do we know if Mormonism actually has the amount of truth and divine investiture it claims? I think the only way is to be a seeker and to develop a deeper and closer relationship with God. That recognition that we don’t necessarily have all the answers, at least to me, drives me to figure out things for myself. If God is all that many spiritual leaders of various faiths have proclaimed He will teach us and mold us as we seek him and his guidance, and I do find that to be true. With that increased spiritual truth we are more able to evaluate Mormonism. There is definitely a gradient or a sliding scale to how much we trust in any set of teachings. I believe we can eventually have a perfect knowledge of whether something is true (through angelic ministration or otherwise), but I think it is very logical to recognize that until you arrive to that point (and you might never though many get close) it requires faith and there is certainly that recognition that others might be right.

[benbritton]

Welcome. Hopefully discussion here can help you while you sort things out. I’m new too, but this does seem like a generally positive forum to work things out in.

[benbritton]

SilentDawning wrote:

I would like to hear the original doubts you had, how you dealt with them , and how they made you stronger…..sounds like a success story.

To briefly answer the question on my original doubts, they were centered around Brigham Young’s Adam-God doctrine, blacks and the priesthood and the lack of public declarations of revelation by our contemporary apostles and prophets though Joseph Smith’s polyandry would also bug me.

My overall concerns was, assuming Joseph Smith was a prophet, it seemed like Brigham Young had messed up a lot of things after him, and I wondered if priesthood authority had really continued in the church. I wondered if we really had true prophets all the way down to today. Considering our modern prophets don’t often speak out about their spiritual experiences I felt like I didn’t have a lot of modern “testimony” from the contemporary apostles and prophet to go on either. At my most negative I would also doubt Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ, and the existence of God.

I read a lot on the issues and thought seriously about them. Some of the things that helped me included the general phenomenon of near death experiences, personal testimonies of direct experiences with Jesus Christ or God from apostles and prophets after Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and various arguments that I gleaned from apologetic sources like FAIR and FARMS. However, none of this fully satisfied me, and I still would bounce back and forth between believing and doubting.

Throughout this experience I continued faithful in my covenants as I knew that was important to receiving instruction from God according to the gospel, and I also prayed specifically to know if Jesus Christ was really the Son of God and Savior of the world, if Joseph Smith had truly been called of God, and, if so, if the priesthood had come all the way down to our current apostles of prophets. This period of my life lasted several months, maybe over half a year. Eventually, after it seemed like I wasn’t going to have the clear and definite answer I wanted, a clear and definite answer came. It was extremely powerful and clear, and, at least for me, it was undeniable. It indicated that the current apostles and prophet indeed did hold the priesthood authority they claimed, which was the only way to fully come to God as the gospel claims. This experience made me more able to trust in God and trust in the less potent experiences I’d had in the past. It isn’t the source of my testimony, but it does quiet my doubts and allows space for me to develop my relationship with God. This increase in faith I experienced has also led to many other spiritual experiences.

All that being said, I still grapple with the salient issues, like the Book of Abraham, but now when I do so it affects my overall faith much less and I’m able to keep a vibrant testimony through it.

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome.

[benbritton]

Thank you for welcoming me.

I’ve been looking into a number of forums, and stayLDS seems to be an overall positive and varied group of people. I also can see that it’s open to different viewpoints, which is important when we are trying to work through difficult issues.

My experience with church history and doctrinal issues: over the years I’ve gone through various stages of learning about the controversial issues in church history. I was often surprised, but I took one thing at a time. There was a point where things reached a boiling point for me and I had some serious doubts. After taking the issues to God I was able to make peace with them and come through it all with a stronger testimony. That being said, there are certainly still outstanding issues that need answers. I actually kind of appreciate the imperfections in our history because they’ve provided an obstacle through which I became closer to God. As far as doctrine goes, I’ve been very interested in doctrine since I was a teenager. It’s something I’ve actively pursued throughout my life. While I have no special academic qualifications for discussing church history and doctrine, I do feel that I have at least some spiritual qualifications and experience.

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