[Bill Atkinson]

Hi NotaMember

I think one of our standard “heros” here on StayLDS may be worth you reading, M. Scott Peck, The Road Less Travelled. What is important in his book is that love takes effort, it is work. A kind of summary that I nabbed off of Wikipedia about love is:

Quote:

Instead “true” love is about the extending of one’s ego boundaries to include another, and about the spiritual nurturing of another, in short, love is effort.

The real point is that the book does give one a lot of insight into both how people avoid dealing honestly with each other (and of course themselves) and how you can avoid all of that.

Though no one has mentioned it yet one of the “defense mechanisms” that lots of us on the site seem to use is the “mental bookshelf”. This may be useful for you in dealing with Mormon doctrinal ideas or the temple for that matter. Many of us have serious questions about the Church but have experienced and lived enough spiritual moments that we know that there is something at the core of it all, so when we run into something that we can’t understand and that continues to bug us we take that problem and “put it on the bookshelf” and leave it there until we are more able to deal with the issue.

Welcome to the board, don’t expect perfect answers, all of us are struggling but we are willing to share that struggle.

[Bill Atkinson]

Poppyseed this is a good question and from my own personal point of view potentially dangerous, what if on consideration I decide that indeed I am a tare? What is there to do?

On a more prosaic level Wikipedia comes to information front with this artlice : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum

and here is a quote from that article that fills out some of the depth of the parable:

Quote:

The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but L. temulentum, whose ears are light, stands up straight. The wheat will also appear brown when ripe, whereas the darnel is black.

so not only is it hard to tell the wheat from the tares in the early stages of growth when we get to the point where it IS possible to see then we get a few more metaphorical hits:

[list]

[Bill Atkinson]

Thanks Ray, that is a wonderful example of the kind of Christ like service we need to focus on. I do a narrower variation on it with my teenage Gospel Doctrine class. I have come to realize that the “transmission of knowledge about the gospel” doesn’t really take place in the 30 to 45 minutes of a Sunday School class and that what is important to my way of thinking is simply having at least one student that engages in a gospel moment, a little small “aha!” about some, usually, small idea, that they had never considered before. So I always pray that I am alert for that student and that moment with the right question, the right silence, the right smile, the right “mmmmm tell me more” or whatever it takes.

[Bill Atkinson]

Goodtruebeautiful I really appreciate the care and thoroughness of your post, it is so heartfelt and in many ways so painful to read it but you have a courageous soul, don’t ever doubt that.

Valoel suggested that you look at James Fowler’s material and I think that may be crucial. It seems to me that you are still operating essentially from a it’s all right or it’s all wrong thinking orientation. I sense that you have spent a lot of time investigating but your True Believing Mormon background is lurking there and thinking that if you can’t say with utter conviction “this is the one true church” you can’t go on. So working with Fowler’s material I think will help, I guess the long term thing that many of us are learning here at StayLDS is that we have to learn to live with paradox and problems and still develop a spiritual life.

It is possible to work your way through to a firm testimony of Joseph Smith as the prophet of the restoration and still acknowledge and work with the many weaknesses that he had. I am in the process of doing that myself and in addition I have had a few very strong witnesses of President Hicknley as a prophet when he visited our area on a tour, so I can hold to those and work through the rest.

I hate to say it but I think your spiritual life would be on a bit different trajectory if you weren’t living in Utah. The Church isn’t so overwhelming and stifling out here in the “mission field” (the mission field being defined as anywhere more than a day’s hard driving from Salt Lake City ). From what I have read on this board there seems to be an actual level of intolerance for differences in the Utah Mormon social community that makes a questioner like yourself an “outsider” almost instantly.

Our thoughts are with you. Though you have outlined a very painful situation it might be good for you to post topics in the other threads on specific issues you have with Mormon doctrine, many of us share those issues and have worked on them and can provide possibly some insight.

Welcome to the board and be patient, you have a loving and wonderful family that needs you and needs you to love them.

[Bill Atkinson]

Thank you Ray that is a great link and a wonderfully well written discussion of grace. I’m glad that you were lazy and just posted it.

[Bill Atkinson]

Chris I understand and share your uneasiness but I have too much of a testimony of so many other aspects of the Book of Mormon that I can put the death of Laban on a shelf and wait for insight at some further point in life. I used to skip all of Alma simply because of the constant warfare and bloodshed but then I got fascinated by what Mormon was telling us indirectly about the people, about the culture, about the geography, about the economy, and about the politics of the Nephite nation. So now I read Alma very carefully and of course I get to run into the great sermons that are inserted into the story and appreciate them even more.

Personally I am preparing to teach the Gospel Doctrine class on the Old Testament for next year and am really struggling with what to do about Joshua. The lesson manual solves the problem of the “ethnic cleansing” of the Caananites (I know I shouldn’t put modern moral judgements back into historical situations that were so much different from our own times but there, I did it anyway) by simply ignoring it, the theme of the lesson on the Book of Joshua is “Be strong and of a good courage” which is a difficulty considering that the same man is ordered to kill all the women and children in all the Caanite cites.

For myself I have solved the problem by looking at the issue in a very scholarly way. It goes something like this

[list]

1. The Book of Joshua was likely completed, that is edited and revised, AFTER the return of the Jews from the Babylonian captivity, almost a 1000 years after the events. In that context they were desperately trying to establish themselves once again as a people.

2. The over arching policy of Ezra and Nehemia was to “separate out” the Jews from all the other people who lived in the land at that time including demanding that any Jews who had remained behind and had married with local peoples divorce them.

3. It was useful to have a heroic national history that included the command to get rid of all the foreign peoples and since that had not been accomplished look at what this means to us now in our just returned from Babylon situation

4. Since the historical and archaeological record clearly shows the Hebrew take over of the land as more gradual we have a situation where much of the tale of Joshua is a political invention for post Babylonian purposes and need not be taken as the literal commands of God.

[/list]

I don’t know if any of that helps you with the problem of Laban but at least with the Bible we do have the 8th article of faith which allows us to see that the scriptures have been “mistransmitted” and we need to exercise caution.

[Bill Atkinson]

Thanks Ray for sharing that post. I can really identify and feel what she is saying. I am very impressed that she is able to stand back from it and understand. As a Church we do have too much of a “public” emphasis on works and it is so important to really grasp the importance of the grace that Christ has given to everyone. That is the real gift, salvation available to all, no questions asked, simply accept in humility.

[Bill Atkinson]

Hawkgrrl thanks for your thoughts, I always appreciate your comments in posts you have a good grasp of reality and honestly state some quite good insights. In this case I focused on:

Quote:

The only caution about that is that sometimes we get a calling we don’t think is suitable, but I do think you have to give it a go. You may be surprised at your natural gifts or what the calling teaches you. …. it’s not east to test drive!

Here I agree with you and have in my family experienced both positive and negative results from accepting callings (in that I am still basically a TBM, I think that if I get a calling I have to accept it. I have short circuited Bishopric callings for my wife that I knew that she simply couldn’t handle at that particular time however) . The interesting thing with Seniors is they expect you to “volunteer” and then they go through the process and you are absolutely correct it is impossible to “test drive” and I still have a herd of 40 cows and 20 some horses and it is impossible to organize for their care for even a 1 year mission at this point in time.

Humanist, thanks for your insight, I personally had never considered the issue from the Mission President point of view and can see just how stressful that could be on the President and his family. I also thank you for your final evaluation:

Quote:

The best PR the Church can have is to see normal LDS people mainstreamed doing service, so I would stay and do exactly what you are doing.

Which I agree with, out in the “mission field” most Church members are busy enough with Church lives that active participation in community organizations is very difficult to fulfill and still keep all the other committments so it is important for us to get into those groups and simply share. It gets a bit complicated for some since by and large we do keep the Sabbath day holy, so some activities we won’t go to and so when we are involved with an organization we do shift its focus from Sunday activities to Saturday in most cases which I guess is a good thing.

The whole issue of being childless in the Church is very painful in so many ways and unless you quickly grow scars you can’t survive. I have finally quit going to Church on Mother’s and Father’s day Sundays just to avoid the pain. I don’t regret our decision to not adopt children, we really were a positive factor in a large number of teenager’s lives for 35 years so we did lots of “parenting” , but coming into this “home stretch” of retirement and “enduring to the end” it is clear that we will be on our own which has its own saddness.

[Bill Atkinson]

Thanks Valoel and Ray for the good advice, I appreciate it.

Interestingly StayLDS has performed an immensely valuable service for me and I would like to share that. I had thought that the core of my difficulties with the Church focused around the correlation program, the beaurocracy of the Church, the lesson manuals and approach to teaching in the Church, the gay issue, the general trend which I thought I saw towards a new conservatism (the follow the leaders message hammered home relentlessly) and to a lesser degree the historical issues.

I solved to my general satisfaction most of the historical issues, at least to an acceptance level and some to a “put them on the shelf they aren’t that important” level. However I still struggle a lot with the first batch of issues which can lead me to “question the leadership” which is very close in my mind to apostasy.

However, though I had not particularly intended it, I was just wanting to note that there is also pressure on Seniors to serve missions and have done with it, instead I found that I had produced a very long post that is, lets face it, powered by quite a bit of resentment. I honestly hadn’t realized that all of that was there until the post was done, up on the board and sitting there: an artifact of my life that I could finally rationally analyze and work with. It is clear to me that I have quite a bit of work to do in building in some charity towards my current Ward which I clearly feel hasn’t been that good a place to grow spiritually in because of the resentments. I need to work on this and very likely this “resevoir” of emotion has been part of the “power source” of my own dissatisfaction with the Church.

More to ponder, but thanks to StayLDS I have it clearly in front of me and can start to deal with that aspect.

[Bill Atkinson]

Allquieton it is clear that you don’t have to worry about wearing your garments and I would add that I have gone through many stretches of life, years at a time, without a temple recommend and still able to purchase garments and have always worn them, Hawk has the correct doctrine on this.

I guess the key would be to really look at what you mean by:

Quote:

I don’t believe the Church leaders are “prophets, seers, and revelators.”

I don’t know about you but I find that I am a particularly stubborn doubting Thomas. I have a very difficult time myself considering that the Church leaders (all GAs) as a “bulk commodity” are “prophet, seers and revelators” or even narrowing that down to the Quorum of 12 and First Presidency. However to balance this I was fortunate to go to a talk that Nathan Eldon Tanner gave in Seattle around 1968 while I was in university. When I was in his physical presence, and prepared faithfully for the experience, I had no doubt that he was a prophet of God, I have a very strong testimony of both his priesthood and his authority that has helped to sustain me to this day. Similarly when President Hinckley did one of his major tours in stopped in Prince George, B.C., (around 2002 ish or so I think) and once again I received an extremely strong and overpowering testimony that he was indeed the prophet of the Lord. Those two are the ONLY two men who I can truthfully say that “I know” they were prophets, seers and revelators. So when I get to a temple interview that is pretty well what I say, “I have this testimony of these two men’ authority and I am willing to take on faith that most of the others probably have the same authority” … but I DON’T KNOW and I suppose I never will unless I get in a situation where I can be close enough to them physically to have the opportunity for the Holy Ghost to witness for me.

So, have you at any point in your life had a similar sense about any of the leader of the Church, it doesn’t even have to be at the GA level, a Bishop, EQ president, Stake Patriarch, whatever? If you have then you really need to pray and think and ponder about how you can answer the question with honesty but possibly with enough humble faith that you should still be able to have your TR.

[Bill Atkinson]

I think that the image of taking apart the wall is very insightful since when it finally comes down to it the only person we can change is ourselves. Fowler doesn’t focus on this idea but in essence that is what his stages of faith are all about, a person taking charge of the issues in their lives and making THEIR decisions to accept or reject, to promote or ignore, and ultimately I suppose to have such a level of acceptance that other people who are trying to keep the wall together are neither rejected nor feared but loved for the honesty in their own hearts.

Working here at StayLDS has sharpened my own understanding of my issues and brought some major fear, for I have managed to move past the historical Joseph Smith errors and virtually all of the historical booby traps but have now run up against my own wall which brings the fear that I really will become apostate because my real issue is with the current leadership and how they are leading the church. I know that is perilously close to wanting to “steady the ark” and get blasted for it but I simply can’t get past what I consider the ultimate arrogance and misuse of resources that things like making us use exactly the same lesson manuals in Sunday School for coming on 12 years. The Church has tremendous resources in excellent researchers and teachers and still we struggle with trying to make these lesson manuals work. The Church has regularly changed the RS and PH manuals why is Sunday School left in the gutter with the left overs? I know it may sound silly but if you are teaching Sunday School or going to Sunday School class you deserve resources that have the potential to open up new insights which gets very hard for adults who have had the same lesson 3 times before.

To my mind, sadly, I think the ultimate responsibility lies with the First Presidency (and here I feel the big finger of Ray about to come down upon my post, trembling I continue very carefully 😯 😈 ) and I worry where that will lead me in the coming few years.

So what happens when you have disassembled the wall to the level that you can and find that suddenly it is folding in on you, trapping and boxing you?

[Bill Atkinson]

Thank you HiJolly I appreciate the help it took me the longest time to decide that in context DH meant “dear husband” and DW meant “dear wife” or did I get that one wrong too?

[Bill Atkinson]

Thanks so much Ray for giving us this extended quote. One of the things I think we might see there is a generational shift since Elder Uchtdorf is considerably younger than President Monson. By the very structure of the Church’s leadership structure we pretty well always have what amount to retired people taking over the reins of the Church and having now been retired for coming on 4 years I sometimes wonder where they get the energy to keep working regular days, every day, and handle the travel schedules that they do.

I won’t be hasty about considering this talk, but my first impression comes in relationship to this quote:

Quote:

Some might feel embarrassed or unworthy because they have searching questions regarding the gospel, but they needn’t feel that way. Asking questions isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a precursor of growth.

I am thinking that this should be framed and sent to be hung in every Bishop’s and Stake President’s office in the Church. If our local leaders could approach people who are questioning from a frame of mind of “how can I help their spritual growth” rather than in a judgemental or apologetic way we would be much further ahead.

More thoughts to come.

[Bill Atkinson]

Welcome Konvert Kid, it looks to me that once you get a bit comfortable you will be the one helping us and not the other way around, thanks for joining in the conversation .

I too went through the family rejection process and became the unmentionable black sheep but rather than from a religious family it was a completely agnositic lets-be-logical-about-all-this-silly-religious-stuff outlook. Looking back on it from about the same 40 years as yours I can see that it helped to solidify my Mormon faith because I had to stand up for it in the face of the most important emotional attachments in my younger life. It meant that going off to university meant that I was really living home behind and I would have to grow up fairly quickly. It hurt but I survived. I wonder how many others have had that sense of family persecution? (I know lots on this board get it from the other direction, from their Mormon family, as they struggle with projecting the image of the perfect Mormon).

I look forward to your ideas.

[Bill Atkinson]

Welcome Pa Pa, this place is all about sharing the struggle, not making it harder so I hope that we can do some growing together.

You said:

Quote:

Lately my faith in God is strong, my faith in me is wavering.

This sense of “wavering” can be so scary and it really helps to talk about it and explore what it really means for you. I will begin to sound like a broken record or a salesman but if you haven’t explored James Fowler yet I think that would be useful because it may help you put your struggle into the context of the full spiritual journey. This sense of wavering may well be a good sign, may be an indicator that you need to move on in your spiritual life to explore what things mean to you rather than simply accepting what you have always been told is the right thing to think.

Again welcome, I too am a bit remiss in all the alphabetical soup of the internet, what does MA&D stand for?

[Author]

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