Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
That is interesting SallyM. I have kind of the opposite cycle, although not as intense sounding. It is hard. I feel for you. Maybe once a week or so (during the week), the thought runs through my mind how it would be easier to just quit and give up. That is how I see it for myself. I don’t want to make it sound like people who leave are quitters, you know that whole not being “valiant” line. I think some people make the right decision for themselves when they explore the path of leaving. I just get tired of the struggle sometimes.
I almost always feel uplifted going to Church. That is how my cycle seems opposite. I feel better afterward. It isn’t because I agree with everything. I feel rather disconnected a lot of the time. The people seem beautiful to me though. It helps me to see other people struggling positively in their faith, even though most of them don’t realize it. I don’t seem to get irritated and mad whem people are talking at the pulpit or as teachers even though I think they are off track. I think I feel more love and acceptance for myself when I can love and accept other people. The challenge makes this happen. It is a REAL challenge
Two examples from just yesterday at Church. The first was a lady giving a talk in sacrament meeting. The topic was prayer. She went on about her prayers being answered. She told a story of her car breaking down, saying a prayer, and people came out of the woodwork to help her fix the car. She talked about her great struggle to pray not to be angry at the Church because some gentleman in a ward in the past wasn’t nice to her. She also talked about angels appearing to her sometimes. She seemed like one of those people that might be just a little bit off. The hard thing for me is thinking of all the times my car broke and no angel came to fix it
I also got all riled up because they started talking about that all-or-nothing line of crud in GD class. People were commenting about how Satan will tell 3 truths to get 1 lie passed, and we shouldn’t tolerate any evil at all …
It is challenging to do, I know. It seems like the path of peace is to be able to listen to others and KNOW you don’t agree, but still feeling love for them. They are wrong, but I know that I am also wrong. By accepting my own lack of surety, I try to accept others. They may think they are right, they might exclaim with great conviction they are right and they “know” the truth, but they just haven’t gone to that dark place yet, that place where we learn to be uncertain and flexible. I have hope still in bright future. That painful process of dropping surety I hope is a process of becoming humble and open to better things in the future.
My wife’s disaffection is open knowledge in my ward. I tell people I understand what bothers her, that I agree with a lot of the information that troubles her, but that I made different conclusions about what needed to be done about it. I never really felt the need to keep it private. She didn’t, so that was not an issue. I understand completely when others keep it private though. I’ve spoken to maybe 3 guys at Church about it in detail (but not the Bishop). I think the rest are a little afraid. They might be a curious sometimes, but they don’t really want to know. You know what I mean? I’ve gone to that dark place and look deeply into the place people are afraid to go. That is how I would describe being treated differently — people are a tiny bit afraid of me. They aren’t quite sure what to make of me sometimes. It isn’t anything major. I participate in a positive way in classes. I enjoy teaching too. I have friends in the ward that I like a lot. People are nice to me.
I am very very lucky to be in the Ward I am in right now. The Bishop is a mature and experienced person, very loving. Many families in the Ward aren’t the “perfect” ideal. I made a conscious note of this yesterday at Church actually. I was thinking about it. I was sitting in Gospel Doctrine and decided to do a quick count. About 2/3 of the people in the room were in part-member families or I knew had older children that had left the Church or were seriously inactive. The issues I have in my family affect a majority of the families in the Ward. So I am not alone by any stretch. People are very accepting and tolerant, and for that I am thankful.
Hi Godzilla, Thanks for posting an introduction. I like how you are able to look at the big picture from a few steps back, and appreciate the spectrum of different places of belief within our Church. I was just thinking yesterday at Church how different some people are. The thought really struck me how much I (we all) need some of those people who might frustrate me at times. They are often the ones making the program actually function. If it was run by people like me, it would fall apart in a week LOL. We are all very positive checks and balances on each other when we come together in unity through the Gospel, and most importantly with the influence of the Spirit.
Possibilities are a great source of continued faith and hope for me. I am pretty much done with putting all my eggs in one basket. I just don’t know for sure anymore. That’s just where I am at right now. I am not so concerned with finding out the absolute truth, once and for all. All the ideas people have about “Truth” are just possibilities. They each lead a person somewhere. The Church is true
The Church is not true
The Church is irrelevant
Those are all correct to me. They are all possible.
I love hearing everyone’s ideas about things. You guys are fascinating!
I often think about the “Gospel” being the container for truth as we know it. Joseph Smith talked a few times about “true Mormons” gathering all which is good, true, valuable and virtuous. This was in his last couple years mostly. That sense of universal truth appeals to me. If as Mormons have no creed, what creed must we follow in order to call ourselves “saints?” We are always encouraged in both tradition and canonized scripture to seek personal revelation, and to seek to know what is true. The amazing things about this concept is that we can still exist in a Church community together at all. Why doesn’t it splinter in a thousand directions? This was an issue briefly in the early 1830’s.
Since I don’t even think excommunication would prevent you from participation with the community, unless you are a disruptive person, then what does cut you off?
I would say have to accomplish two things to be LDS:
1. You have to want to be a part of the LDS Community. You have to be able to love and tolerate people who may not agree with your current understanding of things. You have to want to be a part of it all, and help build up the Church. It has to be your tribe. Basically, you have to self-identify as being LDS. You can’t be there to tear things down, to ruin the experience for others, or to cause the “tribe” damage and harm.
2. You have to personally be in line with current orthodox practices and beliefs, and support the mythology, or you have to have the patience to allow a difference between your personal beliefs and the official mythos of the Church. Somewhere in your heart, you have to be able to at least consider that story of the Church is divinely inspired and/or valuable. It has to at least be a possibility on some level, even if you don’t know. I don’t mean the Church is “True.” I need to clarify that, but at least God has a beneficial purpose in it.
To boil it down into a short statement, I would say this. To be LDS, someone has to want to be LDS on some level. They can’t be out to destroy and ruin the faith tradition. They have to find some enjoyment and purpose in being a part of the community. They also have to find the mythology beneficial on some level.
That idea of personal perfection drives me too. I don’t like the thought that I will just get to the end of it all someday. It makes some people crazy. I supposed it used to make me a bit crazy too until I became much more accepting of myself, much more comfortable with God. That aspect that Ray mentioned keeping him attached is attractive to me too. I can throw out any and all details, but I would still cling to that. It to me is the essence of hope and positive energy. I am also drawn to ideas in eastern spirituality related to that. I think they explore very important aspects of our nature that has been absent from the Christian tradition for centuries. Those teachings didn’t seem to survive much past the first couple hundred years after Christ’s death.
Hi Curt, It is ok to feel upset, angry, shocked and disillusioned. Those emotions are part of the journey of life and the journey of faith. Like you said, you have “honest grievances” to sort out. Until the Church has an official and better way to deal with this, it’s just us banding together to help each other out. As far as being angry, that is cool with me. It is normal and necessary. You have to decide how long you want/need to feel that. There is more though, and some say there is a light at the other end of the tunnel.
You mentioned a few times that a lot of things are impossible now, that you can never believe again without throwing away logic and giving up something deep within yourself. I agree that there is no going backwards. You aren’t going to return to that prior state of “testimony” you probably had, when you were so sure and certain that you knew many stories were “true.” A problem with the process of disillusionment is walking right back into being so sure of the negative. The whole all-or-nothing paradigm has to be abandoned before we find peace. I personally have found a lot of peace in the quest for unconditional love and acceptance, both of myself in the past (when I was a true believer) and of others in our history. The bubble burst, but that doesn’t mean I have to be left with nothing. That’s just me though.
curt wrote:Thanks for listening. That’s all I am really asking for. CurtWe can listen. You aren’t going to shock us with these problems (saying that with kindness and understanding, not as a boast). We know the deal. The thing you have to ask yourself though, is where will you go from where you are at? If you’ve been at this since the 1990’s, it has been a while. It isn’t a recent crisis. Have you decided what you are going to do? Have you taken ownership of your faith and your beliefs? There are many paths to take through disillusion and out the other side.
We aren’t going to freak out about the issues you brought up, but StayLDS isn’t really a rant forum. There are those support groups out there. They are great resources. They are important places to let out anger, vent and get a lot of encouragement for it in the process. StayLDS is a community of people that are mostly done with that part of our journey. It doesn’t mean we don’t have our days
I’d love to know if you are still active in Church? Do you have faith in anything? Believe in God or Jesus? Anything? Some people decide to give it all up. That is understandable.
In any case, thanks for posting an introduction. Feel free to continue hanging out, and jump in to comment if you have something to contribute to our community effort of rebuilding faith.
Great question IMO! I have to run out the door, but I hope to come back to this soon. Short answer: I think it is highly individual. At what point are we no longer LDS? That is really hard to define in a Church that has no creed (or vague at best). I’m not even sure excommunication would define a limit, since even those people are still technically welcome at Church if they are not disruptive (kind of depends on the situation).
I see a pattern with people that work their way back into wanting to be at Church. It usually involves some supplemental path. We find we don’t get everything we want and crave at Church, so we bring in extra stuff in our personal life. A guy I admire named Christfollower at NOM seems to do this with Evangelical Christiantity. Others pick Yoga. I find myself attracted to mystics throughout the ages. I like how you described it for yourself Ray.
Hi GDTeacher, Welcome to StayLDS. This is a place to hang out and discuss staying in the Church. So if you want to be here, you are more than welcome. Although your perspective, which seems much more of a Materialsim approach, is radically different than my own, I can’t fault a successful path the produces peace and enjoyment of the LDS faith tradition. You seem to experience some of that.
I would love to hear more from you. My hope is to gather effective strategies for reconciling with and finding peace within the Church. Some people will certainly connect with your path.
I heard a guy speaking about the LDS social structure and programs once. He seemed pretty open minded. One comment in particular that stuck in my minds was this — the programs don’t seem to work the same without the theology. Your comments about the Rotary Club made me think of that. Perhaps that is the reason to stay and enjoy the Church. Community association is part of the rich human experience. The LDS Church can be a wonderful community. I particularly enjoy the ward I am in right now. The people are so real. They really are great examples to me. Even if I am no longer orthodox in my own practices, I really enjoy the community — the opportunity to serve others and be served by others.
Hi Whimsey! You make sense to me. Welcome to StayLDS. I always enjoyed your presence elsewhere, glad to see you here too.
*hugs*
I believe there was a great apostasy after Christ. I don’t think my reasoning is the same as the usual line at Church. I say that because I don’t think that our LDS “Restoration” brought back the exact same things that Jesus taught. I could be wrong, but it doesn’t look like our Church is an exact replica of primitive Christitanity. That doesn’t bother me either, and is kind of a side point. Anyway, yes. I think there was a very serious apostasy after the death of Jesus Christ. It sure looks to me like his teachings didn’t survive intact very long. I have my doubts sometimes about Paul. I think there are strong arguments that Paul hijacked the “Jesus Movement” and took it in a very different direction. I think the council of Nicea rejected some very interesting theology that I personally like, but they labeled it heresy and buried it — a lot of the more mystical teachings that just didn’t jive with their personal politics. I happen to like the Gospel of Thomas, the Pistis Sophia, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and others. They are interesting. I can see how they made a certain faction of “Christians” uncomfortable at the time. Why should Paul and Luke get so much air time in what we know as The Bible? They never even saw Christ during the time of His earthly ministry. They didn’t hear him teach, directly. They also don’t seem to have gotten along with Peter and James, who did learn at the feet of the Master Jesus.
Outside of that, I see many people (men and women) who receive wisdom from God. Call them prophets, mystics or whatever you want. So I see lots of restorations and apostasies, not so much exactly like we mean in Mormon lingo though. God seems to try to communicate with just about anyone who works hard to seek Him. That’s what I observe.
NOM = New Order Mormon It is another website and forum in the world of internet Mormon discussion. They have been around for several years.
Website:
http://www.newordermormon.org/ Forums:
Hi Nonny, I recognize you from NOM. We’re trying to work on going a few steps beyond just tolerating the Church. We’re trying to cultivate an appreciation, even if it comes from a new and different perspective. There’s no going backwards (at least in my experience).
Nonny wrote:There followed several years of intense reflection and introspection in which I discovered it is not so much the doctrines of the church, but rather the way I perceived or integrated the doctrines, policies, and counsels that led to my disaffection.
I really connected with that statement of yours. The Church is just the Church. We choose how we want to deal with it, interpret it, live it, practice it, consciously decide NOT practice part of it, or whatever. It’s a tough journey, but a worthwhile one to take that ownership back. That is my hope.
Welcome to the site.
katielangston wrote:One more thought about this topic in general. Does anyone else feel a sense of unease or even guilt upon abandoning (or considering abandoning) the “all or nothing” paradigm?
When I consider it, it makes me feel so happy and free to think that I can follow my heart by accepting what I perceive to be good and rejecting what I perceive to be bad. On the other hand, there’s this nagging little voice in the back of my head that says, “Oh, no you don’t! You’re CHEATING!”
Once the spell was broken, I felt like I finally could see clearly. I still work on keeping an open mind though. I try to tell myself “You are probably still wrong.” I want to allow myself to change, which could include the possibility of believing some things again that I don’t now. It would not be for the same reasons anymore though.
Maybe my wife is my guilty conscience for me
