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Welcome Katie I loved your comments about coming to peace with God. I think that is a much more stable and clear framework to make decisions. You are indeed ok. You have doubts because you think about this stuff. I feel like it is how I am wired. I couldn’t help it if I tried. God knows that. I hope you find our community to be supportive, and I look forward to hearing more from you.
kupord maizzed wrote:Umm, do we allow potty words here?
Not generally, unless you really need to make an important point that requires one. [not sure if that question was rhetorical or not, hehe]
Please don’t let my enthusiasm diminish the truth of your experience Mcarp. I don’t deny the examples you gave are common. Your frustration is real. The liberal (might as well use that word, it’s as good as any) Mormons you meet on the internet are definately more quiet and subdued. We are all in wards though. We are everywhere, just not as visible as the more vocal orthodox members. Hawkgrrrl says something often that I agree with: “The person with the greater knowledge has the greater responsibility.”
It isn’t our place to stop everyone in their tracks and correct them. I don’t even believe I am right, so I am not inclined to force my opinions on to other people. I am very likely to damage other peoples’ faith in the Church, or push them off the cliff into disillusionment. It is *not* my place to decide that path for other people.
I spend a lot of time agonizing over details, history, doctrine, and logic that most people just aren’t interested in pursuing. I can’t help myself. It isn’t exactly comfortable, if I have to admit that to myself. The people you are frustrated with are fine where they are. They will change. They might never change. Both are possible. 60% of all adults never go beyond the assumption that their faith tradition is correct and has true answers for all tough problems (the Fowler interviews in the “Library” here talk about this).
It is challenging to be at peace around people that you think are wrong (or they don’t understand).
kupord maizzed wrote:Based on what I’m saying, it appears the difference between NOM and StayLDS is that StayLDS aims to stay more idealistic, where NOM seems to be more in the trenches meeting the needy where and when they are hurting. Is that fair?
I think that is a way to describe it, sure.
There is certainly a zone of crossover between the two communities. The extremes of the two communities will not mesh well in my opinion, that is a large reason to make two spaces. People who are comfortable in the crossover region can swim easily in both ponds
StayLDS is more geared towards people that are largely done with being angry and hurt, who have satisfied some needs to tear everything apart and see how it ticks (this is a positive experience IMO, so don’t read as negative), and who make the decision to move into a new phase of believing and faith (not all go that route). I don’t think NOM supports the group I just described. They can’t so easily. They have a very important but different mission.
The people at one point in disillusionment don’t mix well with people who are not at that point anymore. They frustrate each other a LOT! One isn’t right or better, they are different — like baking soda and vinegar. Both are important ingredients, but they make a fizzy, foamy, explosive mess when you mix them together in a closed container.
FWIW SallyM, my wife is like that too. She finally decided one day that her unhappiness in Church (which is very real for her) was caused by the Church. She never felt like she could ever get it all right, and that made her constantly feel like a failure. She could never be the super-mom, super homemaker and do all the Church stuff perfectly. It didn’t help that we had so much life pressure from having a large family (6 kids) in a short period of time. That was a lot of stress on her 
I took that belief-o-matic quiz and it told me I should be an orthodox jew. I think that was the closest match if I remember right. It was funny because I would never have said that myself. I like the show they put on in Catholic Mass. I don’t mean that in a negative way. The ceremony and ritual touches me sometimes. They do the “awe factor” and the expression of the mystery of God really good. I think our plain protestant-like environment is lacking sometimes.
I am registered as a minister in the Universal Life Church. Yeah, I know some people make fun because it is an internet ordination. I actually take it kind of seriously. I performed the marriage for a couple, the groom is a long-time friend of mine. They are not church-go’ers at all, but they really wanted to have a religious wedding — my friend said I was the ONLY person he knew that he was comfortable with (regarding religion). His parents are devout Catholic, her family is Taoist (they live in China), and the groom is a muscian. So we made a combination Christian/Taoist/Led Zeppelin wedding ceremony. I know that sounds impossible to pull off seriously. It turned out really nice, and it was very special to be a part of it. I couldn’t have done this for my friends with permission as an Elder in the LDS Church.
There are only 2 items in the creed of the Universal Life Church:
1. Promote religious freedom.
2. Do that which is right.
I believe in those. Anything else is left up to the minister.
kupord maizzed wrote:Would any of that be an improvement?
It could be. You seem pretty happy about where you are at, so it seems to work for you. I suspect there are as many paths to that happiness and comfort as there are people that seek it. I am curious to find out as more people gather here and share the story of their journey.
Maybe your solution is to not really believe in the Church as an institution — to simply coexist in harmony with the others where “you were planted” and thrive there. I like the ideas in your list.
I am not personally super attached to the idea of reincarnation. Life might very well be a one-shot deal. A lot of people have some sense of reincarnating though. Another theory I entertain is that we share consciousness with all living things. On some level we are all one with God, and that is eternal. We might feel mostly separated here, but we are not in fact separated from God. So perhaps some people feel like they have lived other lives because their barrier wall is not that thick. Is there a difference between living a life and sharing the consciousness with another entity that lived it? Yes and no. So I could possibly see me feeling like I had lived as a medieval serf in another life (just throwing that out as an example) because I am sharing parts of my consciousness with someone who actually did live that life. How would I tell the difference? It could seem like I had lived it. It might be hard distinguish in the state we are in right now (with our limited capacities).
The mere attempt at trying to answer this question is mind expanding. I love it! (True or not).
How about “Re-building a new faith [as a member with]in the LDS Church.” I think I know what you mean about having faith in the Church. The Church is just a church. You might not have faith in the institution itself, like one might have faith in God, Jesus Christ or “the Gospel.”
We’re talking about the crossroads of faith and the LDS Church on some level. Our meetings are held in a humble little building somewhere near that intersection.
I really connected with that specific part of your journey. I think I passed pretty quickly through the turmoil of history to a similar acceptance — at least in that parcticular part of my faith deconstruction. I *KNOW* I am very flawed and screw things up, yet I feel acctepted and loved by God. I have had some “mystical” experiences, and they don’t make me a good, super-person. Being “ok” with past leaders to me, the way I function internally (and not everyone does this), is very connected with being “ok” with myself. I just tick that way. Other people get very angry. I understand that too. It just didn’t work like that for me. Here is my belief today. It will change, but this is my best shot at trying to understand right now from what I see. It’s really way out there. I think time is an illusion. It is just a way that we organize the impulses that come through our senses. I think it is possible, and I am not saying this is true or correct, just possible, that we experience multiple lives. We experience as many as we want in order to satisfy our curiosity. The reason I added all the bizarre time stuff is that I don’t think it happens in sequence (in time). I don’t even think it happens all in what we perceive as a single world.
I hate to use the Matrix as an analogy, but I often contemplate that we are in such a system.
People seem to experience that they have lived other lives. There are a lot of possible explanations. I love the question. I don’t like to dismiss the experiences of other people. People experience what they experience.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Why not make up a new word instead of “knowledge” like “bluxark.” I bluxark that God loves me. I bluxark that Jesus lives. I bluxark that I love my husband. Hah – now that I said that, the editor in me can clearly see the word is unnecessary. The sentences are stronger if you just say “God loves me.” “Jesus lives.” “I love my husband.”
I bluxark that this idea amuses me. I feel the bluxark in your message Hawkgrrl.
I think we are part of the beautiful fabric of faith. We should share our faith. I benefit from others sharing with me. We should share with others. If they find something in us they like, they might choose to explore it. There’s nothing wrong with that. I also do not find arguing or debating to be productive at all. We never convert people with clever words and logic. Sure, we can convince some people sometimes to join the Church that way. I don’t think we do them a service though.
I’m not a huge fan of our current proselyting missionary system. I wish we had young people doing more humanitarian service at this point.
