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kupord maizzed wrote:
When I read the Bhagavad Gita, Near Death testimonies, Walden, Tolstoy, and Ramakrisha, when I see the Free Software movement, Internet cooperation, Wikipedia, when I receive good gifts from all around me, I am amazed. In my amazement I see the LDS Church with new eyes. It no longer towers over all the earth. Instead, it stands as a peer with all the other sects, parties, groups, movements. As I see the others more clearly I appreciate more deeply Mormonism.
The biggest thing in my life that has kept me from throwing the LDS Church out of my life is the study of other religions, especially the mystical experiences of other people. I started this probably a good decade before I was forced to face all the deep historical and doctrinal problems. If I had to describe my path, the way I am working on reconciling my faith and re-integrating back into the Church, I would call the “Mystic Path.”
I have been so very impressed with people outside the Church. I remember several times, years ago, that I brought this up in a sunday school or Elders Quorum class — “If being a member of the Church is the only thing that gives our life value, then God’s plan doesn’t seem to be very efficient.” Yeah, I said that a few times in class. It usually ended in an uncomfortable silence…
I also believe in the ordinances of the Church at the same time. I believe I experienced the blessings they claim to give. That is my firsthand experience. My rational mind has a hard to understanding how that is possible. I am trying hard to not be so “clever” as to think my way right out of a good thing.
I would say that God is putting together a big puzzle. The people he wants to be Mormon-Shaped, he calls to them. They hear this call and respond when they come across mormonism or bump into missionaries. The people he wants to be Catholic-shaped, he calls to them. So on and so forth.
I’m not really going to worry too much about the people that don’t become Mormons. There are many good, spiritual, enlightened people out there that are loved and accepted by God. I learn a lot from them.
kupord maizzed wrote:Moderators, do I misunderstand this forum? I am conscientious about my decision to stay in the church, but I get all the apologetics I need on Sunday.
I don’t want to speak for Ray about what he meant or did not mean. That’s not my place. It looks like he is clarifying his position.
“Apologetics” and the DAMU term “TBM” have rather loose definitions. The one thing that seems universal though is they are applied to anything that is more traditional and orthodox relative to our own views.
It is my opinion that one way to rebuild one’s faith in the LDS Church is the conscious choice to believe the traditional viewpoints. That may not be my way. It may not be the way most other people here accomplish the task. It is a way though.
The difference here is you are totally free to disagree. Nobody is going to give you dirty looks. If someone sounds too “TBM” or their personal reason sounds like apologetics you don’t like, you can say so. Let them know. Share the discussion. We can all learn from each other. I learn the most from people I disagree with. You can say you don’t like someone’s views, and you don’t even have to have a rational reason. I don’t like some things just because they irritate me.
Ray isn’t necessarily right. I’ve known him for a few months from other places. He comes across passionate and well-spoken. Nobody has to agree with him though. I haven’t ever seen him condemn anyone for not believing the way he does. That is the difference between here and Sunday school at Church.
I want to make room here for people who believe less. I personally hope we can make room here for people who also believe more. That is also a path that people might decide to take.
mcarp wrote:Two of my problems with all or nothing thinking are (1) that’s how I was raised and (2) that’s what the church teaches.
So, if you come across information that shakes your foundational testimony of Joseph Smith, then it looks like “this work is a fraud” and it is tough to deal with. So, it seems like the church itself is perpetuating this idea.
I agree that 1 and 2 are generally correct. I was raised the same way.
What I see differently is what the Church teaches. “The Church” is just an idea. Like someone else mentionied above, it is an illusion. It has no audible voice. It can not move or act. The Church can not teach anything. It can’t do good or evil. Sometimes I think we give too much reification to non-real entitites. We tend to do the same thing with “the government.”
*People* in the Church promote the “all or nothing” paradigm. Sure, it is a majority of the active and vocal people. I concede that. It isn’t all people though. I see many still that don’t follow that idea. The leadership does not march in lockstep. They disagree on lots of things. The “all or nothing” camp might be a majority. It doesn’t make them right though. The Church doesn’t belong to them. The Church is an illusion. They can’t lock it up in a box.
The “all or nothing” mantra works GREAT as a motivational chant for a lot of people. It works just fine UNTIL … the spell breaks for someone and they start to look at everything a little too close. Often some major life event happens. The promise isn’t delivered. The formula doesn’t work and POOF! The illusion breaks. Unfortunately that binary mantra becomes a terrible club to crush and break the foundations of our faith.
As we get older, we realize through ultimatums and dichotomies are more painful than they are worth. That experience is gained from living it. I don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don’t want to be a total failure because I can’t get the last 10% of my life right. I want to enjoy what I believe. I want to rejoice in what I do get right. I don’t want justice. I want mercy instead. I don’t want to live that old way anymore. They can’t make me. Go free agency!
Welcome to the forums DT! Thanks for introducting yourself. I was impressed with something about your story. It was the lack of turmoil over history, and instead that feeling of having run dry. It seems like a lot of people end up on these types of boards after a huge crash in faith. You sound tired, like you’ve gone about as far as you can go with the paradigm you had. I thought that was interesting. I get this sense from your post that you are really ready for a change. I admire how you seem to have made the most of what you had up until now. I didn’t always do that.
I also view my journey as positive. The “tribal” connection is one of the many good reasons to stay. I like my tribe too. The site is here to build a community of people working on the goal of re-building a new faith in the LDS Church. There’s no destination, so I totally agree with calling it a journey. It sounds to me like you fit.
Welcome to the forums!
Hi Emma, Welcome to the site. Thanks for sharing your story. Its good to hear how other people have gone through changes. Hearing a lot of this stuff for the first time is an interesting challenge. I look forward to hearing more of your views.
On an intellectual level, if I were required to conclude that it was all false if I can find a single flaw, then I would have to decide it was all false. I don’t believe in that decision though. I don’t want it to be that way. So tough! I refuse to play that game. It is so unsatisfyingly hollow. It does not match my direct experiences with God, nor my observations of the natural world around me. I seriously doubt that anyone is “right” in the absolute, unchanging way that people sometimes want to define “Truth.”
I confess that the devious part of me takes a little perverse pleasure in the fact that their own view of the Gospel *requires* them to deal with me, as uncomfortable as that may be. “The worth of a soul is great in the sight of the Lord.” How can they “save” me from my flawed views (from their perspective) if they are unkind, unloving and chase me away? That would not be Christ-like. They follow Christ’s example completely or they do not. God will judge them for their stewardship.
😈 (I am just being playful with the language I grew up with in the Church and as a missionary in a pretty hardcore mission).I attend Church. I want to be a part of them. I serve with a smile (sincerely, I don’t cause problems). I enjoy being there. I love them as they are. I am not out to push my views on anyone. I don’t believe I am right anyway, not in the sure and absolute sense that others view the Church (the way I used to).
Dichotomous thinking really causes a lot of problems. It is useful in some cases, but it isn’t the only way to see things. There’s a seductive temptation to make things too simple — because simple things are easier to deal with. It is a natural human tendency. While it sounds so passionate and confident, we look around and see a world that isn’t quite black and white. There are shades of gray, and even rainbows of truth. I agree with Kari, members make the mistake of using statements like this and pushing a binary ultimatum. It crushes some people with its brutal polarization. Is it really better to purify the flock to the point that no sheep are left? Sure, you would have a perfect group of … zero
It isn’t a mature point on faith that I would expect from someone as old as President Hinckley. On the surface, it sounds more like one of my teenagers telling me about how the world operates. I think Ray makes some good points about some of those very focused topics. Joseph Smith indeed believed his experiences (which makes him sincere) or he did not (which would make him a fraud). That is a matter of faith that everyone has to decide. There’s no proof either way that dodges the requirement for us to judge for ourselves. I could handle those statements from Pres Hinckley if that was the purpose.
I hope that the statement was also an example of leadership posturing. It is important to express positive confidence when you are leading a very large group. There he was on a national television, the leader of a major religion. He had to answer questions. I would like to read those statements as an expression of confidence more so than him saying “Believe it ALL or get out of my church!”
The LDS Church is *MY* church too. So those people who go all dichotomous on me are SOL. They can leave, or they are stuck with me. Its only one or the other.
Old-Timer wrote:It’s also worth considering that much of the messiest stuff that challenges faith came about in a time when the Church was led by the young and impetuous. Most members don’t stop and consider that.
wow … You are right Ray. I hadn’t focused on that before. That is a really good point.
It sounds like you would be a really awesome RS teacher SallyM. It is totally ok to say “no, not right now” though if you aren’t in the right frame of mind. I understand the fear of having to teach some lesson topics. You have to be at a point where you are comfortable and at peace with it. Things might change in the future. You said it was something you always wanted to do, so I would recommend trying to keep that bridge there. I have the exact same type of calling in Elders Quorum. I teach once a month, and its my favorite calling. I look through the topics in the lesson manual and feel some anxiety at times about having bad luck of the draw. It doesn’t bother me too much though. I am fine chopping up lessons and focusing on parts that have meaning to me. My ward is one where the leadership is thrilled just to have someone show up prepared for the lesson
I’ve often thought that an approach to this issue, and actually many issues, would be for our Church to become FAR more comfortable with imperfection and sin. I know that sounds horrible to more orthodox ears, but it saddens me how many people leave the fountain of spiritual nurturing because they feel they aren’t good enough to be there. In fact, that is reinforced by members who do not understand their own desparate need for the grace of the God. Part of it is how we seem to grade and order sins into magnitudes and severity in the Church. We are *ALL* sinners who fall short, from TSM all the way down to the most inactive member. Which is the worse sinner? The man I personally know that is emotionally abusive to his wife, or the other man that loves another man and has sexual attraction to him? Does it even matter in the eyes of God that we attempt to grade them? God has total, all-encompassing love and acceptance for us just as we are. God also urges us to keep walking forward, and to discover our personal divinity, while shedding the things that hold us back, whatever those things may be. My view of this has changed significantly as I have entered midlife and really internalized that I will never be able to conquer all my flaws in this life and EARN and deserve salvation through my works. I carried that baggage for so long, I wore myself out. I suspect that’s the point. I needed to carry it until I was ready to let go. I feel silly about it now sometimes thinking about it. I feel so much more compassion now for others who are struggling, instead of feeling threatened or uncomfortable with them.
I look at Jesus Christ, and I see him sharing meals with “publicans” and sinners. I don’t think they were all sitting around the dinner table looking all morbid and pained at each other. We are all following the quiet promptings of the Holy Spirit in a direction towards the divine unity with God and Christ. I have my problems. I am a very flawed man for sure. The man or woman next to me that is gay is flawed too. I don’t even have to be sure that homosexuality is a flaw. It certainly shouldn’t exclude him or her from my love and acceptance.
I’m a sinner, and I can hold callings. I can serve others. I can be a member of the LDS Church. I can uplift those who are down. I can be a part of the solution. Why not someone who is gay?
Its easy to say “lets put all young people in leadership” so we can change faster. I’m in between young and old now. Looking back, I would have really screwed the whole Church up royally if they had made me king of the Church with all power and discretion to make any changes I wanted. On the other hand, I also feel the frustration of being restrained by older people who are from a bygone era. Yes. They seem out of touch in a lot of ways. Don’t forget we will be those old people, set in our ways, some day. We will be the ones resisting the new and correct changes, holding back progress. I suspect we will be sure that we are doing the right thing, even though younger and wiser people will be passionately telling us otherwise
Yeah, I hear you. I always carry around what I call my “extra material.” Its something printed, or a book on religion or spirituality (not always LDS either). If i’m irritated or just not connecting, I read my extra material. I also carry a notebook around with me everywhere. I think and write stuff. I like to write. It seems to me that we are all pretty much agreeing with each other. All the posts acknowledge cultural racism as the root of the problem, and nobody is saying the old reasons given are correct (pre-mortal valiance, righteousness, etc.). The Church can say or not say whatever it wants, as an organization. The vast majority of individual members no longer believe those incorrect doctrines. 1978 was only 30 years ago. That means that a good half of the population alive today grew up being taught those old ideas as “the truth.” The current upper echelon of Church leadership were all in their midlife when the change finally happened. They may not be the genereation capable of making all the changes we talk about. Taking that step towards total reversal in 1978 might be as far as they can handle. It was a huge step farther than prior generations were ready to purge out of themselves. Maybe it will be us? Maybe it will be our children? I honestly think it takes about twice that long (60+ years) to really purge old ideas out of society. Bad ideas have to die with the people that remember them (that experienced them first hand).
So let’s ALL not be satisfied together with where our Church was in the past and be a part of the solution to move forward.
Salo wrote:To be honest I sometimes wonder if I am in the right place because to be frank as devoted as I am to the church I simply cannot and will not bury my head in the sand on these issues . MY message is that the church has not done enough to fix this past error and frankly i’m shocked no one else has expresssed this .Often I find people are trying so hard to not be critical of church and to make it work for them , that these forums just become apologist sites . This is not aimed at anyone in particular i’m just just feeling a little frustrated.
It is frustrating at times. The Church could do a lot more (in a lot of areas). I think there are issues for all of us that we may never accept again (and shouldn’t accept). There’s a much bigger chance that the Church *will* change if people like you, me and others stay inside the community. It is very unlikely to change much from outside pressure.
Those incorrect teachings were around both culturally (society in general) and doctrinally (in the LDS Church) for many generations. It will take decades to work them back out. It can happen. The Church will have more and more pressure to do so, since they are trying so hard to become a world religion. They can’t be a world religion AND go around preaching about skin shades. They will need to purge out the implied racism too from pictures and other lesson materials. That stuff just doesn’t work anymore, and I think they care more about growth and progress than old doctrine.
Its a tricky balancing act to stay in, tolerate views that we think are plainly wrong, and try to be a part of the solution.
Me personally, i’m fine if same sex couples have all the same treatment, benefits, or whatever government gives to traditional married couples. I really don’t care. That seems fair to me. I agree that the LDS Church will long be remembered for their participation in this (both negative and positive depending on the person). I also prefer that the Church stay above politics in general. I like that idea. The part that I have a hard part with still is the word … “marriage.” Its that last part where the SSM proponents want to make those who disagree, and this topic is a deeply rooted religious disagreement, fully embrace them as the same. Its not just about being treated equal under the law, it sometimes seems like there will be no peace until those traditional religious people also accept them on a religious basis — that they stop thinking SSM is wrong. That is where I start to have sympathy for those who are opposed. How can they go that route without being forced into some massive and painful deconstruction of their faith?
I’ve asked this in other places, but how exactly does the LDS Church get to a point where they embrace SSM? (goes the same for Catholics, the Muslims, Orthodox Jews and other extremely traditional Churches). I have yet to see a really good explanation. Mostly just people throw back reasoning about fairness and feelings. But how would that work doctrinally? I just don’t see a realistic path in the very short-term future for the LDS Church to doctrinally embrace SSM. If that ever happens, it will take a few more decades. In some ways, I think it is healthy that parts of our society move slower to change. Maybe SSM is a good change. That will play out over a long time.
So I am not really happy with how the Church got involved, but I have some sympathy for it’s position.
