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I brought up the fact that the people we talk to are going through faith transition, or are generally less traditional. She responded that the survey takes that into account by asking questions about belief and participation. I found out the news on the way home from work today. It makes me very sad. That’s about all I can say. I have always known this was a distinct probability. I accepted that a long time ago and am at peace with it … but it still makes me sad to see it playing out. A further point of clarification: the actual text of our scriptural canon is what is “official,” NOTthe interpretation of it. It says what it says. What does it mean?
How do we implement the ideas in our life’s context?
What does someone with a organizational title think it says?
How are contradictions and paradoxes in the text reconciled?
etc.
All of that is personal opinion. We’re all on a journey of discovery and learning. We are all ultimately responsible for our experience.
DarkJedi wrote:I do submit however that were this a Dickens quote being shared as the scripture in sharing time the reaction of those involved would likely be very different.
Agreed on the point of that specific example. That would be an interesting experiment and an interesting point to make … but it would be hard to get away with it socially. I probably wouldn’t attempt that one. (probably …
😈 )Nobody cares about Mormons. Really. We’re barely a blip on the radar screen, less than 0.01% of the world population. The few people who have even heard of us barely know anything, and honestly don’t really care, except in passing curiosity. The only people who care about Mormons are other Mormons — currently active believers and currently active anti-believers, who I lump all into that single pile. It’s a lot of noise in a very very small room.
I know plenty of people who don’t drink alcohol, don’t do drugs, and don’t drink coffee who aren’t Mormon or even religious. A lady I work with doesn’t drink coffee. Why? She doesn’t like it
😆 Pretty normal answer, right? She doesn’t drink alcohol because she is a diabetic. She’s “nominally Catholic” (in her own words). I could give dozens of similar examples from people I know. It’s very common for people to say they don’t drink when they are recovered alcoholics (real alcoholics by clinical definition, not twisted Mormon cultural definitions). It’s like a code phrase, in a sense. Decent folks respect that boundary in social settings and stop offering it to them.If you are uncomfortable with something the church does publicly, it’s OK to tell people that. On the other hand, if you truly believe in something, it’s OK to share that with others (in the right context of conversation).
I used to quote other fictional literature and even the “scripture” of other faiths when I taught lessons or gave a talk in sacrament meeting. I could sense brief vibes of awkward reflection among some people … but I would argue with ANYONE that doing so as is purely “Mormon” as it gets. We’re supposed to draw from the best books and the best thinking, from any and all sources, because truth and knowledge come from God. Second, I also used to make it a point not to let that false teaching about “scripture” stand unchallenged: that anything a leader says is scripture. Conference talks are *not* canon scripture. Proclamations are not scripture. Policy manuals, lesson manuals, procedure manuals … are not scripture. We host an excellent article that describes the process by which a text becomes canon or doctrine: “Mormon Doctrine, What is Official and What Isn’t” by Donald Ashton
http://www.staylds.com/docs/WhatIsOfficialMormonDoctrine.html Basically, it has to be acknowledged as a revelation and voted on by the WHOLE body of saints, approved “by common consent” as binding upon the church. Everything else is varying levels of inspiration, depending on your own personal revelation.
Wine is fermented grape juice. In fact, a special property of grapes is that their juice will easily and spontaneously begin fermenting into an alcoholic beverage (wine). The skins of grapes contain small amounts of yeast that will start the process. That particular process is called “wild yeast fermentation.” All you have to do is leave a container of grape juice in a mildly warm, dark place. Yeast eat sugar and poop out alcohol 
So … before the VERY recent invention of refrigeration,
ALLgrape juice was at some stage of becoming wine and/or vinegar. In the English language, we have different words for wine and grape juice.
The translators of the King James Bible knew the difference between wine and grape juice when they translated the Hebrew, Greek and Latin into English.
The authors of the Old Testament (in Hebrew) knew the difference between wine and grape juice. They wrote what they meant.
The authors of the New Testament (in Greek and Aramaic) knew the difference between wine and grape juice. They wrote what they meant.
Joseph Smith, the author/translator of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants, knew the difference between wine and grape juice. He wrote what he meant.
The word “wine” means what it means in the scriptures. Sure, there are more words in some of those languages to describe different types of “wine.” Some of those words could indicate weaker forms with less alcohol, but they all refer to some level of fermented grape juice (which means it contains some level of alcohol). Actually, normal fruit juices you buy in the grocery store all contain at least some trace levels of alcohol. You can’t reasonable stop this process from happening even in modern harvest/bottling processes.
Our current LDS interpretation of the Word of Wisdom, specifically the strong and very strict prohibition against any consumption of alcohol, has only been around since the 1930’s. Our own church history records, and the personal journals of faithful and active members in the past, describe to occasional consumption of alcoholic beverages. The prohibition just didn’t have the same extreme prominence in our culture prior to the 1930’s.
Now … that isn’t an excuse to start drinking alcohol NOW. And it doesn’t mean that alcohol can’t be a problematic thing to consume. Not drinking alcohol is certainly an important part of contemporary LDS religious dogma, and our current interpretation of what it means to follow the Word of Wisdom. But it hasn’t always been that way. You are correct in that. And I don’t personally think it’s a problem, spiritually for me, to know that Joseph Smith or even that Jesus drank wine occasionally. Like most things in life, it’s more complex an issue than just Yes or No.
Direct costs for this website run around $200 per year for the server and software, etc. It isn’t that much. It’s good if we can fund that and be self-sufficient, and then help at least a little with the overhead for Open Stories Foundation. Whatever people can give is great, even if it isn’t a lot. I appreciate it. Open Stories Foundation as a whole does a lot of good work to make the world of Mormonism more diverse and vibrant, especially online.
I see what you mean. I’ll check to see what’s up, and if it’s still possible to make a one-time donation. Address: Open Stories foundation
2754 N. 920 E.
N. Logan, UT 84341
I suppose it would be helpful to put a note in there explaining the donation is related to StayLDS.com, if that is what you would like to support. It can just go to the Open Stories Foundation generally too, or tell them what other podcast/community you would like to support. They try to keep track of where fundraising comes from.
I try to help them raise enough to at least cover the costs for our community so we are self-supporting. If we help them out additionally, that’s great. Thanks!
I listened to the Beer Snob episode last night on my commute home from work. I thought it went really well. Your audio essay was powerful. No matter how many times I hear your story, it breaks my heart again all over. Your such a great guy, CWald (and your wife). Hope to see you again if you make it out to Wash DC like last summer. That orange peel, rye IPA sounds rather tasty. You’re hardcore dude, growing your own hops. Most of this type of tension stems from the mistaken view that we believe what pretty much everyone else believes. It’s a key characteristic of Fowler Stage 3 perspective: We are part of our tribe, and our tribe all believes ______ [fill in the blank with a viewpoint]. There are outsiders who believe differently, but that is because [fill in the story of why they are wrong and we are right]. Fowler calls that the “Story of Stories.” We develop a story that explains why there are stories. Prior to that, we don’t even understand that others think different than us. It doesn’t cross our mind. For Mormons, we all have faith in “The Gospel,” or we all believe in The Plan of Happiness (or whatever label you want to slap on it). The reason outsiders don’t believe is because either Satan is tricking their mind, or we just haven’t sent missionaries to remind them of all the things they’ve forgotten from their pre-existence. But all human beings KNOW and agree on The Truth at some level because of the “Light of Christ.”
Basically, there’s this grand delusion that everyone else sees things just like we do. And on top of that, happily married couples agree on everything, right? Otherwise, there must be something wrong in the relationship.
If someone doesn’t see things the same way we do (the way everyone sees it, which is the correct way), then they are being influenced by Satan. They are an outsider and a threat. That’s scary! Especially in a marriage.
😯 In my limited experience, it seems like everyone has to find the right balance for them between full disclosure and full deception. This is true in all social situations (including marriage relationships). It isn’t a new question. It’s been debated among philosophers for ages. Life is messy business. Staying married takes real work and compromise. People change over time. Those are realities that have to be dealt with. I’m not the same guy my wife married 23 years ago. She isn’t the exact same woman. Did we even know each other that well when we got married? Looking back, not really.
Our relationship works better when she doesn’t share everything with me in real time without any filter. And also when I don’t share everything with her in real time without any filtering. Most of the things I have regretted saying to my wife were things I should have waited to process a little longer. Getting angry comes to mind. Definitely better to cool off a bit first. So why not filter some aspects of our personal beliefs about God, especially if we know it will upset our spouse? I don’t have a problem with that.
But like I said, there needs to be some balance. I don’t think I would personally be comfortable with attesting explicitly to something I don’t believe. I think it’s better to retreat to being more fuzzy and unsure. Which to me is quite honest. I’m open to ideas in the future if for some reason I had better evidence for them. Why not? I’ve been wrong plenty of times in life
😆 I know some friends and family members that used e-cigs to transition themselves off regular cigarettes. Gosh, if nothing else, it’s at least a step in the right direction. What do you do when science can separate a function from a form? (a cigarette that acts like tobacco, or perhaps doesn’t, and it doesn’t contain the forbidden substance named in a 180 year old revelation)
It’s kind of fascinating to watch as the advancement of technology blurs the lines where religion refuses to adapt to the context of the people trying to live it. I know we were raised to believe the Gospel is eternal and can never change … but really, if you think about it, it has to. Religion is irrelevant if it doesn’t actually address day-to-day life experience. God made a very dynamic and vibrantly changing world, and he placed us in it.
Just a crazy thought: we might have to decide for our self, and not wait to be commanded in all things.
Even more crazy: we might not all come up with the exact same answer, since we all have different experiences.
