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1. Follow the prophet 2. Obedience to commandments brings blessings and protection (Word of Wisdom and Tithing mostly)
3. Chastity / Modesty (promoting our specific LDS views on sexuality)
4. Outsiders (aka “The World”) are dangerous, and we are in a high-stakes conflict with them.
5. Families are Forever (TM)
Joni wrote:On the other hand, one faithful sister related a story of choosing to pay tithing over rent when she only had enough money for one or the other. She was then ‘rewarded’ by receiving an unexpected bonus at work before her rent was due. I’m sure that was a lovely and faith-promoting experience for that sister, but I am really uncomfortable with those kind of stories being associated with the ‘law of tithing’
I’ve made the decision to pay tithing instead of being responsible and pay a bill, depending on the Lord to send magic checks, and fell flat on my face a few times. In fact, during a time when I was the most devout about paying tithing, our financial situation got worse and worse. For some reason, nobody passes on my story in lessons about tithing. Strange…
🙂 I’m not saying that paying tithing is wrong. People should pay tithing if they want to, and I know many people who are spiritually blessed by this practice. I accept that. It wasn’t my experience. That’s all.
I have felt more motivation about Fast Offerings. At least those moneys are more directly connected to taking care of the poor and needy. And I would also like to spend more time someday volunteering at the Bishops Storehouse. That was always very rewarding to me, personally.
I used to make a hobby of this, and found quite a few people. It takes a certain amount of social risk, but it was far easier for others to open up when I was putting myself “out there” first. People knew I wasn’t conventional, and I was always open about why my wife wasn’t ever there (she left the church because she disagreed with history and doctrine, and that I supported her decision for herself). I would make the unconventional comments in class, or point out the obvious paradoxes in the ideas being discussed in order to make the conversation go a little deeper. I would bring up outside view points when I taught classes (used to love teaching EQ and occasionally sub for Gospel Doctrine). People would find me later to talk more about those things. Or they would thank me for speaking up and saying what they wanted to say. NOTE: I didn’t do that stuff all the time, and I always made sure to balance what I did with positive and uplifting comments. I tried hard to not be disruptive. It’s important not to be argumentative. I would usually just throw something out there, and then back off to let people react and resolve the issues however they wanted.
Other than that, these were my radar signs:
-Guys who wouldn’t wear ties and a white shirt.
-People who sat quietly in the back of the class and didn’t participate much, but you could see them getting agitated at times.
-People who bring supplemental material to read in Sacrament Meeting or classes.
-People who raise questions about the lesson material that showed they really were thinking about things farther down the logical tree of implications.
-Part-member families, or people who aren’t in traditional 1950’s nuclear family arrangements.
I tend to go with this universal law: it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission. 🙂 In any case, like y’all already pointed out, the manual says you can use stuff outside the manual. So both bases are covered.
Quote:I don’t have a reddit account. Will I need one? Is reddit really just like a collection of forums? Why is it so popular vs other forum providers?
You need an account to be able to post comments. It’s easy to get an account. On the most basic level, you don’t even need an email address. But validating your account via email earns you a “badge” and more legitimacy, apparently.
It’s like a loosely-organized super forum with tons of topical sub-forums. I don’t know why it’s so popular, but it is. It has some cool features that allow the users to vote topics and replies up and down.
I suppose it’s theoretically possible to reverse the process. One or all of the standard works could be demoted. The thing is, all those books of scripture are filled with vague stories from distant times and foreign cultures (even the D&C is pretty far removed from our contemporary experience). They are about other people in other times. What we really work with is what Daymon Smith calls “metatext.” We seldom talk about the actual text in scripture. We mostly think and talk about stories about the words in those books (and interpretations of our stories about the texts).
Take the Old Testament for example. It’s a compilation of stories that are almost 3,000 years old, about a culture and people that no longer exists. There’s very little actual theology in them. **BUT** it has stood the test of time because the stories are loose enough to be constantly interpreted and re-interpreted into later environments. It’s a source of inspiration for many people. I’m totally cool with that. But what does it mean to accept the text? We really accept interpretations of the text. All religions do this.
We already do this in LDS religion and culture. We tell each other new stories and interpretations about what “The Scriptures” contain. The Old Testament is binding on the church, but I would certainly be excommunicated from the LDS Church (and thrown in jail) if I tried to keep captured women as concubines from countries I visited as a soldier in the US Army. That’s allowed in the Old Testament. But we certainly don’t accept that.
Sorry to use such a gross and shocking example, but it makes an important point. The scriptures are “binding” and a sure source of truth, as long as we ignore all the parts that aren’t…
:wtf: “What is Official Mormon Doctrine?” We have a great article on this topic in the resources section of our website: http://www.staylds.com/?p=326 It was written by one of our community members a couple years ago. I think he did a good job of describing the history of our doctrinal development and the various levels of “call to authority” we make. Our church has a specific procedure that was accepted a long time ago, even if many members today don’t know about it. No, not everything that comes out of the mouth of a leader has equal weight. And the ultimate authority for what is “binding” as official doctrine is *supposed* to include the democratic element of the being voted on by the members.
The “Standard Works” (Bible, BoM, D&C and PoGP) were voted on and accepted by the church. New problem: what do all those stories mean?
😆 I dropped out of all FaceBook groups earlier last year. It became too much of a time-suck. I decided to rejoin the main Mormon Stories Podcast FB group, but mostly so I could just monitor the DAMU news. FaceBook is very much lacking in moderation an group management tools. That’s why we never pushed to setup an active presence there.
The main Mormon-themed FB group I still participate in is called “Meaningless Additional FaceBook Group Loosely Associated With Mormonism.”
😆 It’s a parody group about Mormon social media groups, and the conversations have to be pointless or they risk being moderated. It’s very therapeutic.Hi Zeppelinate, Thanks for spending some time to introduce yourself. It’s nice to know some backstory for people. It helps to bring context to comment.
zeppelinate wrote:For me personally, I am very grateful I only need to receive revelation once that our prophet is the mouthpiece of God. Then I don’t have to struggle with my own biases and lack of understanding on every issue.
I think that’s currently the most popular way to view our leaders among active and LDS members: to seek confirmation on the whole instead of parts. I don’t agree with that personally, but it is a valid approach. If it works you, that is highest priority in our community.
So with that qualification: What do you do with prophets that are wrong?
Our community isn’t about winning arguments. So I am not trying to say your approach is wrong. But this topic comes up a lot here. How do you deal with the paradox in practical terms?
It seems a lot like a discussion board: it unfolds over time. I will plan to be there live, for a while. But I imagine the discussion will go on over the course of many days. As many of the old-timers here know, I have cut back my social media participation over the past year. I wouldn’t say I had an “addiction” by any clinical definition. But my involvement in various causes and the production of podcasts, etc. was having a negative impact on my family. I was spending too much time on it. But yeah … I know that feeling about finding this whole new world of internet Mormons (of all views and levels of belief), and binge-consuming all the openness and community. The internet is my home Ward.
A classic bit of poetry on faith in Heb 11:1 is “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith is:-The feeling of hope. It’s the power to get out of bed in the morning and engage the world.
-The energy we expend striving for a goal (which may or may not be realized).
-It is a real thing we experience both in our minds and bodies, like a “substance” we work with.
-It is a potential reality, an imagining we create, an evidence of things that *might* be.
-Accepting the wisdom of others we trust, especially when we know we lack experience or knowledge of our own.
Faith is not:-Accepting views as “truth” that don’t match our experience or our hopes.
-Obeying others when our intelligence, abilities and senses tell us something is wrong.
-It is not an excuse to be lazy and depend on others for all our spiritual (and practical) decisions.
When we experience something as true or not true, functional or dysfunctional, uplifting or harmful; it is no longer evidence of things
notseen. We have first-hand experience (a testimony) and have seen. God always answers prayers. I also observe that God seems to “help” people the most who actively solve their own problems.
Praying is a great way to either connect with the divine for revelation and assistance, and a great way to calm your conscious mind so that it gets out of the way for you to figure out how to solve your problem. My view is that both at the same time are how God answers prayers.
zeppelinate wrote:That being said when it come to the words of the prophet we have to develop faith and not look beyond the mark. We have to learn that God’s ways are higher than our ways and acknowledge that his words are the same as God saying them Himself (when acting as the prophet).
“Looking beyond the mark” is a form of ambiguous statement that sounds like it means something, but doesn’t have a concrete definition. Sure, even someone as liberal on the belief spectrum as me, I agree that we should listen to God and seek for the best application of that inspiration we receive. My view of what God is, what revelation is, and what a prophet is has changed a lot. I don’t dismiss the role of prophet-archetypes in our society. We progress in light and truth, progress towards whatever the kingdom of God is, as we collectively (and individually) improve our selves and our environment around us.
To me “sustaining” a leader means to help make them the best leader possible. It means to help them help the community they serve with the talents and energy I have to give. Sometimes the best way to do that is disagree with them. If you feel they are wrong, if you see brothers and sisters being harmed, it’s just as much a duty to point that out. That can be done in a community-building and supportive way. It can be done in a contentious and negative way. We gain the wisdom to that better by trial and error, through life experience.
Ineffective leaders surround themselves with an echo-chamber of “yes men.”
