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Roadrunner wrote:mackay11 wrote:Roadrunner wrote:
If it were proven that JS’s marriages to already married women were consummated it might be the proverbial final straw.
I recently asked my wife (a lovely, caring, good person, but also a TBM and an RM) if the bishop or the prophet told her she was supposed to marry them while still married to me. She said “possibly” and that she’d have to pray about it. It made me a little depressed but also jealous that I don’t have that kind of faith.
Ouch! Even the Bishop? Having been a Branch Pres (Bishop lite) that kind of trust is scary.
Yes, indeed – Ouch! But I was asking for trouble when I asked the question. To add a little context we were literally driving to the Mountain Meadow Massacre site and I was explaining to my children why it happened and I said that we ourselves are responsible for our decisions and that we cannot “blame” our decisions on our leaders. She got a little angry and said at least we have to pray about instructions we don’t agree with. So it probably was a a little tit-for-tat, but I think if the prophet or one of the 12 asked her (and she knows Pres Monson and a couple of the 12) that she might consider it.
You’re a better man than I. That response from my wife would be a deal breaker for me…
Thank you for posting such a thoughtful summary of your beliefs. I have been trying to figure out my own beliefs for awhile now. Your reasons for your beliefs are similar to my reasons for the things I believe or am trying to believe. I especially liked when you said we might be on a lower left eleven since we have to be commanded in so many things. I hate all the rules and the Pharisee-likeness of our church. So I keep the ones I like: forgiveness, love your neighbor, the golden rule and also I keep the ones required by my wife: wow and loc. Other than that I am glad to have some freedom from Mormon guilt.
Welcome, StayLDS is a good site. I read a lot of the stuff people post here. I also like NOM. You are lucky to have a wife that understands. I have been going through this for a little over 2 years now and I know I would leave the church and just forget about it if I could. My wife is TBM and would still take the kids so I really can’t get away from it though. So I keep going and try to keep my sanity by visiting these different sites. StayLDS may just be a stopping point for you on your way out or you might find it works for you. I am not sure that the middle way will work for many. It seems like a very frustrating life to me but some seem to like it.
The church is trying to circle the wagons. I think the information age will prove to be a problem for many institutions in positions of authority. The institution no longer gets to control the information. People are now able to get the information for themselves and bounce their thoughts off of one another and no person in authority is even needed to call a meeting or control the conversation. I don’t know if this is the intended purpose of this talk, but I think if just gives ammunition for front line zealot members. The talk doesn’t have to specifically say what information that you have gotten about church leaders is wrong. It just has to say that some of it is wrong. Sure! some is right and some is wrong, but there’s enough of messed up stuff that is right that I wasn’t told about that I’m mad about it. Since the talk is worded to say that some of the information about JS, BY etc is not true then TBM’s run with it and say that everything I am researching is false and I’m being deceived etc.(I’ve been told this twice since this talk came out, and I’ve been told to listen to this talk many times). Meanwhile the church has somewhat circled the wagons without addressing the issues. (Admitting the things that are true is not “faith promoting”)
In the long run, you can’t fight the information age. Things will have to change and it will be resisted by the establishment and some of the people that help to bring about the change will be villified (those evil intellectuals!). In the mean time I am going to go about my business with less faith while being judged more by my wife. I can feel that now!
Thanks for the talk
I like the Liahona and Iron Rod talk as well. I remember that it gave me some comfort on one of those days when I thought I couldn’t make it through mormonism for one more day. Brian Johnston wrote:I don’t take the same meaning from them anymore though. I see them as interesting, mostly. I don’t see them as being attached to any particular set of dogmas or faith traditions. They aren’t necessarily, to me, an indication of “truth.” Everyone seems to have them. I feel they are a part of our vast and complex mind, much of which is outside our conscious focus and perhaps even outside the meat of our brain, and also perhaps acts as a gateway to perception and thoughts that stretch our limits (in a good and creative way).
I agree that it does not seem to be based on dogmas or faith traditions. I don’t think God works just to one religion. I guess I am hoping there is a God and this suggests to me that there is something out there. Of course it could just be the power of the mind and all that however many percent of it we don’t use. Or just the power of positive thinking or future me came back in a time machine and told me stuff while I slept or a million other things. I’ve thought before that the “spirit” could just be our intuition (use of brain outside of our conscious use of it) that is guiding us to make good decisions etc. For example yes, it’s good to think the church is true since that puts you in the cool crowd at church and you fit in with everyone. So then you get a real spiritual experience as your brain triggers your emotions while you sit there like a dope not knowing that any of this is going on. On the other hand though, sometimes these things seem outside of what your brain could have any possible way of knowing, but I guess I don’t know the depths of the power of the human mind…
I just don’t have much confidence in setting a baseline of my faith (Does God exist?) on some pray about something and feel good about it and then you can say you know there is a God because you have faith. I’ll have to keep thinking about it (yes and praying to get a warm fuzzy). Right now I’m taking the over on the over/under for the question “Is there a God?”. I would be surprised however if God looks like Gandalf in any way (an old white dude with a beard).
Having a faith crisis sucks.
Thanks everyone for all your comments and for providing a community for us who are staying lds (for now)…
Thank you all for your responses. Heber13 wrote:
But, from hearing what you are talking about, the struggle I see you needing to wrestle with is around certainty. You want the church to be all true or you don’t know what to believe.Then, I realized, I could look at the other parts of the things I do still believe. I still believe there is a God. I believe teachings about love and service are helpful.
Yes. I think I am a product of my black and white upbringing. I have lost my all true world and it can be hard in a world of grey especially when my wife insists that it is black and white.
I think the church does good things and teaches good things as well. It is just hard to leave the other stuff when it’s forces on you. For example I don’t want to sing praise to the man, I have a hard time hearing what I think are preposterous things taught in church like the garden of Eden is in Missouri or that American Indians are descendants of Jews. So I don’t know the right way for me to be cafeteria with these things. Do I get up and leave? ( I so that when its really bad) Do I try to correct people? (only sinners don’t think the garden of Eden is in Missouri).
I have done quite well setting up boundaries between me and the church with regards to my time and what I will do, but I just feel way too unauthentic when I’m at church.
Quote:It might help your wife hear something you believe in.
Yes. She needs this. The problem is I don’t know what I believe. I don’t have a premade canned set of beliefs that I can give her that has an answer to everything. I usually just say I don’t know. This is hard for her because she does not have the stability she needs. It’s been a rough 2 years…
Quote:One of the best things about this kind of experience is that it is an indicator that God is aware of you (if that’s how you choose to interpret it). The idea that this last vision just happened last week can be very affirming because it can serve to dispell that these visions/inspirations only happen when one is “worthy” or that “faith before the miracle.” If I understand you correctly, you have been grappling with doubt. That doesn’t appear to have changed God’s relationship with you.
Yes I do hope it is God being aware of me, I just have this feeling in the back of my head that I don’t want to get fooled again… I am having a hard time believing in things again. I really hope there is a God. It is painful to think that there is not one. I think this experience has given me insight into why we have religion and why we believe in God (we being people as a whole). I think it’s a great defense against the unknown cetainty of death.
SamBee wrote:Quote:They happened while I was sleeping and when I awoke I followed the dream and everything was exactly as I saw.
Believe it or not, these happen to most people, although they prefer not to talk about it. They’re really quite common. But they happen as much outside Mormonism as in it.
Yes. I think they have to do with being human and not with being Mormon. Also I don’t think they have anything to do with “worthiness” (my opinion only).
I served a mission in the islands and I loved it. I am glad I didn’t know all about the church when I was younger or I would have missed out on all the good experiences I had on my mission. My advice would be: Don’t get caught up in the exact obedience propaganda they will try to feed you. This can help to avoid a lot of guilt.
Respect other churches and cultures. This respect is sometimes lost when young missionaries think they are proclaiming the one and only truth.
Don’t forget who you are. Keep your own personality and don’t lose yourself while trying to be a perfect missionary.
Love the people and love your companion. The second one can be very hard sometimes…
Read the Bible. With all the emphasis on the bom some missionaries have never read the Bible. There is wisdom in the book (whether you think its true or not).
Avoid extremism and people that talk in absolutes. This includes mission presidents and GAs….
Remember that you are a volunteer.
Have Fun!
Good read. Thanks for posting it. I obviously don’t agree with everything he said but I loved his attitude and openness. I feel your pain. I have felt how you feel and will feel that way again (usually every Sunday). Just like you want to see your girls get married I want to see be able to baptize my kids. I have no helpful advice but sometimes it helps just to know that you are not alone especially when it seems like your thoughts and feelings are different than the group (not believing in the church when your family does). Good luck to you! Thanks everyone. I love the how to stay article as well. That has helped me a lot. I am bitter about the bom because I don’t think it really happened. I think there are good stories in there that teach good things but really what’s the difference between the bom and a good Christian book? At least the bible is historical (if a bit exaggerated at times). I mean I am fairly certain that Moses existed. I can’t say the same for Moroni…. I think it wouldn’t bother me so much if it weren’t taught in the church as the most correct book. So I have a block up against it and it’s too bad because I have read it so many times. I still like certain verses but it’s not the same.
