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When I grew up in the church it was encouraged to question and get your own confirmation from God. Early leaders like Hugh B. Brown would say things like, “he who has never doubted has never thought.” J. Reuben Clark said the church should be investigated and exposed if wrong. So what changed?

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Arrakeen wrote:

As a missionary I always dreaded Fast and Testimony Meeting. You just knew someone would get up and say things that would offend your investigators and they would never want to come back. Like when someone rails about modesty while you have investigators there dressed as most normal non-church members do… yeah we did not appreciate those kinds of “testimonies”.

I used to fear that too as a missionary. I served in Austria and I recalled a F& T meeting where a German man got up and talked about how lucky his Austrian fiancé was to have found such a superior German man as himself to be her future husband. The Austrian congregation wanted to rip him apart after the meeting. Many European members would get up and talk about angels they had seen and unusual spiritual experiences that would freak our investigators out. After my mission, we also had unusual testimonies from convert members. One I laugh about was a man who got up and ranted about how bad ‘fluoride ‘is and was on a health rant. Our bishop standing behind him was a dentist and did not appreciate it. It was entertaining sometimes.

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Thanks Roy…good response.

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Thanks Dark Jedi…yeah alot of my lds women friends were offended by the ‘bitter fruit’ saying in regards to ‘out of wedlock’ babies. My daughter had my oldest grandson out of wedlock at 16. He is an absolute gem that has brought nothing but joy to so many lives. Yet, I know members who were born under the covenant, and became bishops that abused children. Babies are born innocent and should not be made to feel inferior under any circumstances.

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“Adultery, promiscuity, elective abortion, and children born out of wedlock are but some of the bitter fruits that grow out of the immorality sanctioned by the sexual revolution.” Todd Christofferson LDS General Conference (2020) I have heard discussion of this quote and offense taken that those born out of wedlock are considered ‘bitter fruit”? Anyone else taken it this way?

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My husband and I remember this interview well. We were soo disappointed and shocked when Larry King asked him about that couplet about ‘as God was, man could become etc.’ was something we did not believe anymore. He did not seem like a prophet at all to us. I had read his bio and he seemed like he had lived a good life and was a good man, but he was pretty senile when we saw him at the Nauvoo dedication. The session we were in, he kept telling our stake president in the audience (whom my husband worked with at Palmer Chiropractic college in Davenport Iowa) that he was the stake president of the Peoria Stake. Our Stake President kept correcting him and said he was the President of the Davenport Iowa stake. President Hinckley also said at that dedication session that he would like to go to Peoria, IL and spit on the graves of all the persecutors of Joseph Smith. He was not with it that day, but I do not fault him that as things happen we you age. They should be released then is my opinion.

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Regarding the Uchtdorf talk on unruly children hurting their parents and leaving the church….I remember the lds church leaders praising my Catholic young adult friends when they left the Catholic church and deeply hurt their parents. They were called courageous and truth seekers. I certainly did not want to hurt my parents when I questioned the lds faith. My kids left the lds church long before I did and it did sadden me but I soon saw how what they choose was good for them and their children at that time. I just felt this conference and the new proclamation and hallelujah shout was more about reinforcing that the gospel was true no matter what facts to the contrary. In other words, ignore the man behind the curtain and obey. I was brought up to believe: “If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed.” J. Reuben Clark…and many others said to not accept what the leaders say blindly.

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DarkJedi wrote:

First, my own beliefs are not that the temple recommend will get you into heaven and neither will the signs and tokens. It’s all symbolic.

As to the temple itself, I also don’t get much out of it either. To those people who say they learn something new every time they go there I say BS (not out loud unfortunately). I agree with you, the Emperor’s New Clothes story is a very good analogy – and it works for lots of other things too (“I know the church is true” “I know the Book of Mormon is true” etc.) because people are too afraid of not knowing even though they really don’t.

Thanks for that reply Dark Jedi

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I think I was taught that holding a temple recommend and being able to go to the temple meant you were a member in good standing and worthy of receiving the ordinances essential to get into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Which meant you would be able to spending eternity with your family with Christ and God. I was told that you had to do certain things to be initiated into those special realms just like a person had to qualify in certain ways and pass the bar to be in the hall of fame of lawyers or something like that. Then I heard about special Mormons that had a secret initiation to have their calling and elections made sure. Which meant not only that they were assured to be leaders or the best of Gods chosen in the celestial kingdom but no matter what they did, they could not be excommunicated. I remember a stake leader asking me in the second temple interview, “What makes you think you are worthy to hold a temple recommend?” (It was said in a very arrogant manner btw.) It took me aback and felt very intimidating, but I said, “Because I can answer all the questions correctly.” I had fasted and prayed many times before going to the temple that I could get a strong testimony and spirit for temple work. It never came and I never felt any spiritual or good feelings through out the temple ceremony. It was difficult for me because I always felt like there must be something wrong with me since everyone else on my temple bus trips were raving about how wonderful and spiritual it was. I came to feel like the boy in the story, “The emperor has no clothes”. That all the towns people were afraid of the king so said they loved the emperors new clothes. I admit I was too afraid to come out and say, “but the temple ceremony seemed weird, and unspiritual to me.

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I distinctly remember this saying. I remember telling my husband this saying when he was so busy with callings in the church that he had no time for me or the kids. My husband believed that doing his church callings was putting the Lord first. He equated the church with God. I felt like a married single and our kids felt like dad just came home enough to reel out harsh discipline. I became resentful of him and the church. We hardly had a sex life and I felt like he no longer needed or desired me. I hated going to the temple because it made me realize I did not want this man for eternity. I blamed him more than I blamed the church because he could have stopped this. But, he believed the church taught that putting your callings first was putting God first,so that is what he did. It almost destroyed our marriage and had a very bad effect on our kids for some time. Only after he realized the church was not God and put our marriage and family first (with alot of counseling) did we survive. So, I do believe the lds church gives out mixed messages to families. If you read back in lds church history when men were called on missions for many years and left their sick wives and children to take care of the farm, you can see where members can get the message that family and marriage does not come first.

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Thank you for bringing this subject up for discussion. I grew up in a lds household, but my mom was very mentally ill after WWII in Germany. My dad would have us gather for family prayer with each family member (including my mom) taking turns. We all dreaded it when mom said the prayer because she was so crazy and took way too long. When my dad was not home, my mom would force my sister and I to say these crazy prayers or threaten to not give us school lunch money. We hated saying these prayers but she would hound us all day til we rattled them off the way she wanted. Fortunately, I had a wonderful normal dad who taught us rational prayers but still it affected me in life. I often wished God would just speak to me the way my dad did. I have always wanted God to be my loving heavenly father that I could feel was real like my earthly dad. It took me along time to have a correct understanding of who God is and how he works. It was only after my faith crisis that I learned about how God answers prayers and works from an Christian preacher named Joyce Meyers. I listened to her 4 CD’s called “How to hear from God” Now, I just try to talk to God like I would to my dad and that helps.[attachment=0]51BKq0t4l9L._SX342_.jpg[/attachment]

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There was a time in my life that I felt like I had been doing all the right things in church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, fasting, reading scriptures, praying. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit.

Out of the blue, this pastor I had met from another Christian church, handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins, not their problems, they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews; waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. I knew immediately that the only thing I should be concerned about is being saved from my sins and that is why Jesus died for me. A real paradigm change for me.

I also read that Mother Theresa had her doubts in God at times. She knew God had called her to serve the least of these in India but later felt that God had abandoned her because she no longer felt God’s presence or help. Years later God spoke to her and said that the reason He had left her to her own was because he wanted her to understand what the people she was serving felt like (abandoned).

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Obviously happy for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. But can we rage a bit about how we got here? President Nelson came out in January 2016 and emphatically proclaimed that this policy was revelation! Direct from God. He described the process of how President Monson received the revelation from God, and all of the 15 knew it and supported it. Elder Christofferson was trotted out and told us that this was doctrine. How can this be revelation if it is completely rescinded in three years? Those of us who stood up against this policy were persecuted for it, all under the mantra of follow the prophet and these men were inspired from God. How could these men think that the 2015 revelation was a good thing and inspired and now not? It did so much harm.

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There was a time in my life that I felt like I had been doing all the right things in church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, fasting, reading scriptures, praying. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then I came across some anti-Mormon stuff from the Tanners that quoted out of church history and Journal of Discourses. For the first time I thought that my church might be false.

This 7th Day Adventist pastor handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins, not their problems, they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews; waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. I knew immediately that the only thing I should be concerned about is being saved from my sins and that is why Jesus died for me. A real paradigm change for me.

I also read that Mother Theresa had her doubts in God at times. She knew God had called her to serve the least of these in India but later felt that God had abandoned her because she no longer felt God’s presence or help. Years later God spoke to her and said that the reason He had left her to her own was because he wanted her to understand what the people she was serving felt like (abandoned).

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I want to mention that when I told my young married visiting teaching companion about these marriage encounters she said she could never do those because it would cause a divorce. I asked her what she would like to tell her husband if she could. She said I would like to be able to tell him to bring me flowers at the hospital next time we have a baby. I was shocked and asked her why she felt she could not do that. She said that her husbands’ father taught him that flowers were a waste of money. She felt she had to always obey her husband because he had the priesthood. So sad.

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