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When we moved to Florida 7 years ago, we contacted the new bishop for help in moving in. He told me that because my family was not active and because my testimony of the BofM was weak, he could not help us. We did go to church there a few times, but no one even said hello to us at church. Most unfriendly ward with no enthusiasm or spirit in it. My husband was shocked that not one person said hello to him in his high priest class. When I asked questions regarding my doubts, I was considered a trouble maker. So, we did not feel too needed. Joni wrote:
We have GOT to stop perpetuating the idea that if you pay your tithing instead of feeding your children, everything will be okay. That is FALSE.
So agree Joni.
DoubtingTom wrote:
“The happiness of our spouse is more important than our own pleasure.” I like this. Good talk so far. Focusing on turning outward towards others. Simple loving others message.
I like that too, accept that church callings always took precedence over spending time with wife or family in our ward. It almost destroyed our marriage.
What great questions and great sincerity. My husband joined the lds church on an intellectual testimony. It was a rational theology to him. He figured the spiritual witness promised at the end of the BofM would come later. So after joining and re-reading the BofM he began fasting and praying to get the spiritual witness promised by Moroni. It never came. Bishops told him just to accept callings ( like ward missionary) and when the time came to testify, the spirit would witness to him. It never happened. For a long time he relied on Paul H. Dunn’s testimony because he really liked him. When his fabrications came out, that was the final straw and he realized JS could have fabricated his story. So without his own person witness he could no longer go on in the lds church. He did speak to a GA about it once and this GA told him that some never do get this witness and he had no answer as to why. Eventually, he stopped knocking on that door and found peace outside the lds church. It does seem that God does not want everyone in the lds church as he led us to a different church. I respect those who stay in the lds church and believe but when it comes right down to it, we each must follow our own impressions and see where they lead.
Dear Joni, I have been where you are several times in my life. The anger and frustration are awful. I too had stopped praying several times in my life.
1. was when I had my 3rd and last child. It was a horrible childbirth and my husbands business was not doing well. We went on a picnic for Labor day when my baby was only 2 months old. Some teenage boys started throwing large boulder rocks at us and I almost got knocked down in my back and dropped my baby. I was furious and did not want those boys to get a way with this. I was also very frightened and desperate enough to say: “God, I don’t believe in you any more, but just incase you are there, please help me. I also told God that if He did not want me to stop praying to him to make this boys accountable. They had run away but I had my husband call the police and they found the boys and they did have to pay a price for what they did.
2. When my kids were teens was another time I lost my faith and stopped praying. I had been doing all the right things in the church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, etc. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then someone handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins not their problems they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. That was a paradigm change for me and from then on I became focused on overcoming my sins and looking to Christ for support and answers.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
I did a brief overview here:https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/03/19/lgbt-questions-an-essay/
Thank you hawkgrrrl for that overview.
mom3 wrote:
In support of Ray’s reminder, we have on this board Bishops, High Councilors, and Bishopric members who work hard to embrace and include LGBTQ members, and to soften LDS hearts in that arena.So yes – I know Mormon Bishops who would.
That is soo good to know mom!
Ray, and everyone, i totally want to apologize if my post came across as bashing bishops. We had some really good bishops with our gay son. They were kind to him and us as were some stake leaders. They just did not understand and do this experience was nice. And Ray, you are right about other churches too. We were kicked out of the Nazarene church because we had a gay son and Mormon friends. I was glad to read about so many good bishops and leaders you all mentioned. I see that its been awhile (2014) since I started this thread!! I have been busy with my life and some health issues. But, thought this would be a good place to share this interesting information which relates to the subject of whether a Mormon Bishop would ever do this. This 2016 Christmas, my gay son came to visit us in Florida from Seattle. He got to meet our new Interim pastor, who is gay, as well as his partner. My son loves to play Scrabble and our pastor and his partner came over to our home to play Scrabble with him for 3 hours. When our pastor learned that my son had a recent breakup and was hurting, he asked if he could pray over him. It was so touching the love he poured out for our son and asking God to help him find a life partner. My son said this is the first time any minister has done that for me. Then my son told the pastor that he wished there were more gay movies, like “Brokeback Mountain” and my pastor loaned him a couple of his DVD’s to watch. One was “Latter Days”!! Now, my son is friends with my Pastor on facebook and listens to his video recorded sermons. For the first time my son is starting to have faith in Christ again. The pastor answers all his spiritual questions now and what a blessing this Christmas was for all of us. My son is the young man in the black shirt in the picture.
LookingHard wrote:Bridget – it sounds like your husband landed in a good place.
Thanks lookinghard. It actually saved our marriage to have him leave the church.
My husband went along with ‘hoping’ the church was true for a long time for the sake of his kids and I. He had prayed and fasted many times for a spiritual witness about the BofM, JS etc, but it never came. He saw many good fruits of the church and just relied on others testimonies. He especially loved Paul H. Dunn and listened to many of his tapes. When it came out that the had fabricated some of his stories and testimonies, that was the final straw. He said that if a good man like Brother Dunn could fabricate his stories, how do I know JS did not fabricate his. My husband said that he would no longer rely on others testimonies and since he had never gotten one of his own, he decided to leave the church. He asked, “How long do you keep knocking on a door without anyone opening it.” He was finished with the church and has now become a humanitarian. He does many good works in his community and in other churches but to him, the lds church misrepresented itself and no longer believable. ! I never had a problem with him until a couple yrs ago and his rant in Gen Conf abt the turned down page of Hyrum Smith’s BofM from Carthage. That hurt. Now Elder Jeffrey B says he is angry bcz I (we) have legitimate questions??? He never answers any questions … He only rails against those who have them. Grrrrr!
It’s hard to understand why you cannot have an honest and civil discussion with Jeffrey Holland without getting castigated. Of what use is that? His style of declarationism never solves a thing.
Here is what I posted on my facebook which got a good response from most of my divided family and friend members. My evangelical ‘Nelly” daughter did get into a big fight with other gay family members. Today is one of those days that this post is appropriate. There are such strong feelings on both sides of the Supreme court ruling today. Here is a good article that shows how both sides should act towards each other:
Church: We Have Work To Do
JUNE 26, 2015 1 COMMENT BY MATTHIAS ROBERTS With this morning’s Supreme Court ruling on same-sex marriage, let’s not forget what’s most important. It’s a historic day. The Supreme Court has just ruled that same-sex marriages are a right. As our social media feeds begin to bury us with countless news stories, blog posts, reflections, and “I don’t usually say…” posts, may we not forget what is the most important.
People.
For those of us who are celebrating, we must resist the temptation to rub our happiness in the faces of those who don’t agree with us. Celebrate with full abandon, but let’s not do it at the expense of our friends. We, of all people, know what that is like. It can feel so good to return the favor, but let’s be careful.
We still have work to do. As more and more churches introduce inclusionary practices, it is our time to step up. LGBT Christians are in a unique place to speak into this culture shift: from a place of faith. We are able to step into our communities and help guide them into spaces that are sensitive and dignifying.
This is (unfortunately) a new thing to many people. We must speak with voices of grace, kindness, and an understanding that change will continue to take time. Jumping all over people because they didn’t use the right term, or because they have objections to our theological ideas, or because we don’t see eye to eye, will not help anyone. Today’s ruling isn’t filled with magical “now we are fully accepted!” powder – yesterday’s challenges are still here.
Speaking what we believe to be truth does not give us a pass on the spiritual fruits of kindness and gentleness.For those of us who are not celebrating, we must also be careful with our words. There are people listening, people we may unintentionally drive away. By posting that status with a ‘clear proclamation of God’s truth,’ we may be ruining our witness. Is this a time to stay silent? No. But it is a time to craft responses that uphold the personhood of the people who we are discussing. Speaking what we believe to be truth does not give us a pass on the spiritual fruits of kindness and gentleness.
Beyond how we are responding to today’s news, there’s a deeper reality. Kids are still sitting scared behind their closet doors terrified of the words that they will be hearing coming from their parents’ mouths. There are kids who are once again vowing that no one will ever know about their sexual attractions because the stakes are too high: be gay and labeled sinfully dirty, or stuff it all down and remain untarnished.
Many of our churches and faith communities are not safe spaces for LGBT people. This sad reality goes beyond our views on the morality of same-sex relationships or what we believe about trans people. It reveals how we treat people who are different than us and is a direct reflection on how well we are carrying out Jesus’s great commandment to love God and love others.
There are many people who are scared to walk into our churches because they don’t know how they will be received, or what they will be told. The Supreme Court ruling doesn’t change this, in fact, it may make things even worse.
News like this has a tendency to flare up internalized prejudices in all our communities (not just in our churches). As followers of Jesus, today’s ruling gives us another opportunity to show and spread the radical love of Christ. This love is offered to everyone, especially people who are different than us. It is a love that combats prejudice in all forms, it is a love that drives out fear of the other, and it is love that we all possess.
In celebration or in sadness, we can choose to focus on what is really important: the people around us. We can choose to love them deeply. For some of us, that love may be swallowing our pride and sitting with people who are grieving as they pray for our country – and praying with them. For others, it may be hugging and sharing joy with our neighbors who are finally able to get married. As we focus on the people who surround us, we invest in relationships and human lives.
At the end of the day, we are all people who are deeply loved, and we are called to be people who share that love without qualification.
Here is already a statement by the lds church: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/supreme-court-decision-will-not-alter-doctrine-on-marriage Interesting:
JS was living in polygamy when it was illegal but that’s alright, he was the prophet.
What the lds church teaches:
And there was a strict command throughout all the churches that there should be no persecutions among them, that there should be an equality among all men; —Mosiah 27:3
That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things; —D&C 78:5-6
And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man. —D&C 49:15
And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land; —D&C 98:5-6
…and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. —2Nephi 26:33
We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied. —D&C 134:9
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. —Luke 6:22
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. —Galatians 3:28
I am sure a lot of churches will say: The 2nd coming is right around the corner.
In regards to the article of faith on obeying the laws of the land how will the church respond? For those churches like the lds who will oppose this, this may calm them down:
from Justice Kennedy in the ruling:
Quote:“Finally, it must be emphasized that religions, and those who adhere to religious doctrines, may continue to advo- cate with utmost, sincere conviction that, by divine pre- cepts, same-sex marriage should not be condoned. The First Amendment ensures that religious organizations and persons are given proper protection as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths, and to their own deep aspirations to continue the family structure they have long revered. The same is true of those who oppose same-sex marriage for other reasons. In turn, those who believe allowing same- sex marriage is proper or indeed essential, whether as a matter of religious conviction or secular belief, may engage those who disagree with their view in an open and search- ing debate. The Constitution, however, does not permit the State to bar same-sex couples from marriage on the same terms as accorded to couples of the opposite sex.”
