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The problem I have is that some of the stuff Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other prophets did, we would get excommunicated for, and they did not. Interesting thread. First, I want to share my husband’s tipping point. It was actually when Paul Dunn was exposed for his fabricated stories. My husband had really admired, respected, and loved Paul Dunn. Even though my husband had an intellectual testimony of the church, he never got the spiritual witness promised in the Book of Mormon by Moroni. Therefore he relied too much on Paul Dunn’s testimony. When PD was exposed, it hit him like a Mack Truck. He said, “I will no longer rely on anyone elses testimony. If a man like PD can fabricate his spiritual experiences, how do I know Joseph Smith did not fabricate his. Until I recieve a spiritual witness from God, I will not go back to church.” For me, the tipping point was two fold; 1) Learning about the true history of Polygamy/Polyandry and the disgusting things JS and other church leaders did and said about this issue. 2). Was that we were chastened for questioning and doubting….there is a third issue but I blame that more on my husband. He equated the church with God and so never turned down any calling. He was in med school at the time, which was hard enough on our family, but spending so much time away from me and the kids with very time consuming callings, was too hard on our family. We do miss some of the teachings of the church and hope they are still true.
Thanks lookinghard. I agree on what you said on that quote about mother Theresa and what I think Hugh B. Brown is right! What scernario were you thinking? The article says: “There is no suggestion in the scriptures or the teachings of the prophets that encourages doubt. ” So, I guess apostle Hugh B. Brown was wrong when he said, “He who has never doubted has never thought.” My brother just sent me an email about the new March Ensign article and asked me what I thought. Here is what I wrote him back: Hi…..Yes, I have read and heard of the article. It was being discussed on some of my Mormon online groups a few weeks ago. It looks like the church is having more and more members question historical issues that are problematic. These two replies to the article is how we feel about this Ensign article:
http://brucefey.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-response-to-when-doubts-and-questions.html https://rogerdhansen.wordpress.com/2015/03/01/questioning-and-doubting/ You are right Dark Jedi, about active members assuming inactive ones leave mainly because they were offended. It made my husband upset that his friends in the bishopric and high council would think he was that shallow. Active true believing members do not know what to do or say to those who have become inactive or left the church because of serious issues that bother them about the doctrine, lds scriptures and church history. One of the main things they do not do is really listen to understand. They could not comprehend that my husband never got the witness of Moroni’s promise of the Book of Mormon. They think that all the disturbing questions we have about church history, book of Abraham, etc. etc. can be easily answered; that you are being to intellectual. This last new bishop did come to our home to try and understand. He did try to listen, but he really cannot comprehend all we have gone through. He made comments that show that all our little doubts can be explained by the church and hear is how he misinterpreted in the last email he sent me:
Sister Night,
I am grateful we are able to communicate with each other through email. I believe you do understand the doctrine, and are waiting for personal revelation. I also believe you have felt personal revelation in the past which testified of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I encourage you to read the Book of Mormon again, you will not receive personal revelation of it’s truthfulness unless you are reading it.
Bishop…..
Here is part of my reply back to him:
Bishop…..
I do appreciate that you took the time to correspond with me. I do know that God answers prayers and have felt the Holy spirit many times in my life. Unfortunately, your assumptions are incorrect in regards to ever getting a testimony or witness that the Book of Mormon is from God or that Joseph Smith was a prophet. When I left on my mission at 21, there were many things I liked about the lds church and I just assumed the rest was true. When I was in the LTM,(language training center) which was very difficult for me, I decided to really pray whether JS was a prophet because I did not want to be doing this, if it wasn’t really true. To me, JS was the key to whether the church was true. I never got any good feelings or answers but was too embarrassed to go home, so stuck out my mission and continued studying the gospel. I have read and taught out of the Book of Mormon many times and prayed about it many times. There are some great teachings in the Book of Mormon, but there is much that I did not like at all…especially all the wars. The main thing though was that I always got a stupor of thought and negative dark feeling about this book…similar to my negative temple experiences.
….Sister Night
Never heard back from him and he also did not respond to the email I sent him about how I would like gays treated in the church since we have a gay son. I guess our family is just to difficult to deal with.
dash1730 wrote:On another subject: If the PTB’s weren’t at least closely following John’s story, they would be guilty IMO of negligence because this story is making a martyr of him in many peoples eyes. It will only hurt their cause. IMO they should have gotten in front of this story and managed it better, if possible. I recall when Sterling McMurrin got in the crosshairs of the Church, Pres McKay told the stake leaders he would personally be a witness for McMurrin. The story never became a big deal
Here is the story on David O McKay and why I think he would defend John Dehlin today:
As recorded on pages 55-56 in “David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism,” Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee were moving to excommunicate Sterling McMurrin for his unorthodox beliefs. When President McKay heard about it, he phoned McMurrin and asked for a private meeting. In that meeting, McKay was never critical nor disapproving. He told McMurrin: “They cannot do this to you! They cannot put you on trial!” and that if they did, he (the President of the Church) would be McMurrin’s “first witness”.
McMurrin said: “I should have been censured for being such a heretic, and here President McKay wasn’t even interested in raising a single question about my beliefs, but simply insisted that a man in this Church had a right to believe as he pleased. And he stressed that in several ways… It was really a quite remarkable experience, to have the President of the Church talking in such genuinely liberal terms.”
This increased my love and respect President McKay. Would that we could have more members like him today. Why should John Dehlin be treated any differently than Sterling McMurrin? McMurrin was especially critical (and publicly) of the Church’s civil rights record. He also didn’t believe the Book of Mormon was a historical record and based on my memory of an interview he did with Blake Ostler, McMurrin didn’t believe in the divinity of Christ.
Author Greg Prince later elaborated on that McKay/McMurrin experience on very early Mormon Stories podcast (episode 2, I believe). He said that during that same visit with Sterling McMurrin, President McKay asked a series of rhetorical questions such as “What is it that a man must believe to be a member of the church? Or what is it that a man is not allowed to believe to stay a member of the Church?”
He didn’t answer either question, but they’re good rhetorical questions. This was in 1954 when McMurrin told McKay that it looked like they were going to try to throw him out of the Church. McKay said that if they do “I will be the first witness in your defense”, and when word of this got out the excommunication charges were dropped. That’s some serious compassion from the President of the Church. And apparently he was as tolerant of those on the far conservative side as he was of those, like McMurrin, on the liberal side. Very cool example of pitching a big tent and welcoming everyone in.
SunbeltRed wrote:bridget_night,
Since you posted this here I have been following your pastor on FB. I really, really like him. He just seems to get it, and if I lived where he does, I would probably stop by his church every few months.
Glad you found a place that helps you find peace and happiness.
-SBRed
You are right. He is fantastic. I also like this article I posted on my church wall recently:
A Pastor imagines what a conversation might be like with God after leaving this life–and after he’s excommunicated LGBT individuals (and sometimes their families).
God: “You’ve got it upside-down. The ones who welcomed gay people into their churches were the strong ones. They asked God about it and then they listened to the Spirit – they did what was right – they actually loved people the way that I love people.”
Pastor looks up in tears. “I had no idea.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/freedhearts/2015/02/02/pastor-looks-up-in-tears-i-had-no-idea/ Great thread….Postives for me: 1) forced me to grow spiritually and live by the spirit of the law verse the letter of the law.2) more honest about what I don’t know 3) more open to finding truth throughout the world 4) less guilt complex and understand how God loves me more and 5). closer to my husband and kids than ever before. Hi Charity…my heart goes out to you as I used to be in your husbands position. Just pray that God will show him the light as He did me. My husband had been praying and fasting for many years to get the witness of Moroni’s promise of the Book of Mormon. When it didn’t come, he left the church and I found myself crying my eyes out in a fast and testimony meeting one Sunday. I was begging the Lord to tell me why he had not given a good man like my husband a spiritual witness, Something very unexpectedly happened then. A clear thought came through my head that said, “Why don’t you go visit that 7th Day Adventist church around the corner?” I thought, “Where did that come from?” and then the thought came to me two more times. I told my husband about it and we decided to follow that prompting. I met with the pastor of that church several times and the things he gave me to read answered some important questions I had. You see I had been doing all the right things in the church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, etc. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then I came across some anti-Mormon stuff from the Tanners that quoted out of church history and Journal of Discourses. For the first time I thought that the church might be false.
This 7th day adventist pastor handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins not their problems they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. That was a paradigm change for me and from then on I became focused on overcoming my sins and looking to Christ for support and answers. Not a church.
Well, I highly respect Grant Palmer and believe he does his reasearch. I listened to him here where he talked about JS hiring Porter Rockwell and Jackson to take out Govenor Boggs and the immorality of JS. http://mormonstories.org/grant-palmer-on-sexual-allegations-against-joseph-smith-william-and-jane-law-and-his-resignation/ But, if you have evidences to the contrary or believe Grant Palmer is wrong, I am open to hearing it.
I listened to Grant Palmer’s podcast on the Laws and it just blew my mind. I keep hearing all these excuses for JS, like ‘all the prophets had weaknesses.” and JS admitted he had flaws. BUT, JS broke 6 of the 10 commandments including adultery and murder. Any of us lay people today would be excommunicated for the stuff he did, but not JS and other early leaders. Instead, teens and single members today, have been raked over the coals for masturbation and having a same sex attraction, or women wanting the Priesthood. I expect a little better from prophets and leaders than lay people in the first place, but at least repentance and consequences not rationalizations. I just listened to the Mormon Podcast from Givens on the Crucible of Doubt and the discussion on this question. Problem that bothers me is that JS and other early prophets of the lds church did things that we would be excommunicated for today. They seemed to get away with stuff that I think were abominations.
