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Hi Poppyseed, I always like reading your posts. I love the geninune questions and sincerity of this group. It’s so nice to not be afriad to ask questions and have people look at you like some apostate. Prayer has always been a difficult thing for me. Because my mom was so mentally ill, she made prayer seem ridiculous. Her prayers went on and on about crazy stuff and were always the same. Yeah, we knew mom was nuts, but still, her forcing us to say these memorized prayers (or “I won’t give you lunch money for schooL) made us kids hate saying prayers. Only my dad kept us sane in regards to prayer. I do believe that God answers prayers and that prayer is mostly for us as God already knows what we need anyway. Gratitude and appreciation of what we have is a key to happiness and valuing things. There are times that I have had very powerful answers to prayers and other times I feel nothing. Sometimes, I wonder why it is so difficult to have communication with God. My dad and I were so close and if I ever had a problem, I could just call him and we would talk for hours. I wish it were like that with God. But, for some reason, this life does not allow that. We are told to read scriptures to hear God’s word or He can answer us through other people, books, tv shows, movies, music, dreams, visions, inspiration. Living by faith and trusting in an unseen God is not always easy for me. I was watching a Dr. Phil show the other day where he was talking to couples who desperately wanted a baby. He mentioned that there is evidence that shows that every thought we have can affect our physical bodies. So, I imagine that prayer and believing a loving God cares about us can relax us and give us peace.
Dear Timpanogos, Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with me. It does help to hear uplifiting, positive experiences. My dad had such a testimony of temple work and genealogy and is partly why he joined the church. My first experiences in the temple were in 1969, in the St. George and Salt Lake Temples, just before I left on my mission to Austria. Those were not necessarily bad experiences, but it was all very strange to me. It was when they still had live actors for the devil, etc, and blood oaths. I also did not feel comfortable putting knee to knee and body to body so close to older men getting through the viel. It was after I got married that it became more difficult. I seemed to fall asleep the minute the lights went out and the movie started even though I had not been tired before I came into the temple. It was all very ritualistic and strange to me. I also did not like that women sat on one side and men on the other as I wanted to be sitting next to my husband. I heard that it used to be that way at one time. One time, I got sent in a room to do washings and annoitings for others and ended up missing the endowment session with my husband. That really upset me as I really wanted to spend this time with my husband. Also, I thought it was crazy going round and round for 2 hours doing washings and annointings. So, I started praying while doing this and I asked God to help me get a testimony and good feeling about what I was doing at least. No such thoughts or feelings ever came. I cried when I came out of the temple and my husband and dad did not know what to do to comfort me. Then one time when I was pregnant and the session started, I began sneezing and getting a bad cold. I had no hankerchief, and was led out to take care of that. I was doing fine and came back in and the sneezing started all over again. I eventually did make it through the viel, but when I got into the clestial room, everyone seemed so unspiritual. I heard and saw men taking their hats off and talking about how uncomfortable they were and others saying it felt hot and stuffy to them and wanted to get out of there. Well, that did not add good experiences. Another time, I got food poisoning just before I got to the temple and was violently sick for several hours. One of the worst times was when I went through a session and I was looking at my husband and thought, “I do not want that man for eternity.” I was so unhappy in my marriage at the time. As I write all this, I see that maybe bad experiences I was having in my life was carrying over into going to the temple. My husband was alwasy struggling with his testimony and it was causing me to doubt. It is interesting that once when I came out of the Chicago temple, and I was really struggling with my faith, I went to the lds book store nearby and felt led to a small book called, “For those Who Wonder,” by Jeff Burton which really helped me.
Anyway, I would enjoy hearing any positive experiences people have had on this group in regards to the temple.
Hi Heber, Thanks for bringing up your questions. I don’t really have the answers, but I think PB are a good thing which have helped members guide their lives. I do think it is difficult sometimes to know how to interpret one’s P. Blessing and it would be nice to be able to talk to the Patriach who gave us the blessing to ask questions about what certain things mean. For example, my youngest son’s blessing never mentions he will ever marry or have children. Since he has a same-sex attraction, he thinks this part of his blessing means he is gay. Yet, one of his best friend’s blessings never mentions that either and she is now married with kids. I would love to read the book HJolly mentioned that is being prepared with blessings. I love learning new things from people on this group.
Poppyseed, Thanks for bringing up your experience at the recent temple dedication. My husband and I had a very similiar experience at the dedication of the Nauvoo temple. Of all the temples dedicated, we felt the rebuilding of the Nauvoo temple and its dedication, should have been something special. Whenever I read about the Kirkland temple dedication or how some of the early members experienced their baptisms, I would find that so marvelous and wish more of this kind of experiences would be happening today. Prophet Hinckley is a wonderful man and I have always liked him, but we could tell that his mind was getting older and he mixed up some things he had to be corrected on. When the Hosanna shout of the session came up with the handkerchief, my husband and I were surprised at what little enthusiasm the members expressed. It was like alot of our ward members sing during church (lifeless). We were expecting loud expression of joy and happiness. Instead it was like everyone felt uncomfortable doing it. When we came out, there were all these booths set up with selling souveniors of the temple, but it reminded me of the money changers that Jesus cast out of the temple. Some people do seem to have powerful experiences in the temple, and I envy them. Sometimes, I wonder if its like the story of “The emperor has no clothes.” That people just pretend stuff because they think they should act this way. I do not want to come across as belitting the church or its members but there are so many things I do not understand. I have sincerely fasted and prayed so many times to get a stronger testimony of temple work and just the opposite has happened for me. As far as speaking in tongues….When I was 18 I went with a girlfriend to visit her four square church. There was alot of ‘speaking in tongues’ going on there. It was so strange to me and very pentecostal like, but no interpretation of tongues, so I certainly was not edified. My most spiritual experiences have come in the middle of the night over concerns for my children. I have also had many spiritual experiences while preparing Sunday school lessons or in Relief Society. I have a testimony of some teachings of the church and so I go by that for now.
Thank you, Popppyseed. I can get pretty intense about some things! Just like in the parable of the talents, it’s what we do with what we have that counts. I believe that quality verses quantity is what God is concernced about since Abraham had only one son from Sariah (Isacc). Hawkgirl…I also liked what you said…Personal responsiblity and using our brains and not having to be told in all things just makes sense. What I wonder is how people with large families make it? Maybe that’s another thread.
THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 90
25 Let your families be small, especially mine aged servant Joseph Smith’s, Sen., as pertaining to those who do not belong to your families;
Footnotes
25a Mosiah 4: 27 (26-27).
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
I truly believe God wants us to use wisdom and do what’s right for our own situations. I had terrible health growing up and a compromised immune system from being born at 3 pounds after WWII in Germany. I had 3 ‘horrible’ pregnancies, childbirths, and colicky babies. My husband was in Chiropractic college and Medical school during those times and was hardly ever home. I had no family near by to help me and was depressed and exhausted all the time. My mom was so mentally ill after WWII that I was not raised to know how to be a mother. I did not want any more kids after the 1st one because it was a nightmare for me. I threw up all the time and had horrible migrane headaches. I had more hell with one child than some couples do with 10 kids. After a crucifixation childbirth my 1st son had horrible colic the 1st three years of his life. He cried all the time and my nerves were shot. We had no medical insurance and my parents paid to find a doctor who finally found out it was his appendix. So, it is so important not to judge one another and to mind our own business in this area accept to ask if you could use some help. We were on church welfare, govenment aid, and my parents helped to get through all this schooling. It was so hard on our family and my oldest son did a suicide attempt at 13, my daughter had a baby out of wedlock at 16, and my youngest son went through hell discovering he was gay. I had to handle all this while working a part time job teaching beauty school. You bet I used birth control and my husband had a vasectomy after the 3rd child. God gave me great peace about this and told me I had suffered enough.timpanogos wrote:Some time I’ll have to tell you my story about meeting BKP for what I assumed was going to be my excommunication over Jewish holocaust victim work (which we did for years in the Provo Temple before it became a hot issue).
Tell me about this Timpanogos? I still have a hard time with the temple. I have not gone for years now, especially since my husband and all 3 of my kids have left the church. Some people seem to have such wonderful spiritual experiences in connection with the temple and others, like me, have had negative experiences with the temple. I am glad some of the things in the temple have changed because some of it was actually kind of scary for me.
Your story is so interesting George. Lots of food for thought. MWallace, I always learn so much from your experiences and perspective. My Danish Dr. friend gave me this link:
http://www.straightguise.com/default.asp?id=1272 that explains why there are straight guys who have sex with men and are not gay (just confused about their orientation). A gay psycologist runs to website and it is very interesting insights here.My Danish doctor friend came to realize this happened to him. He had been a male prostitute in Copenhagen when he was a young man for about 10 years and most of his clients were married men. When my Danish friend read my book he came to realize his own SSA stemmed from his severe sexual abuse by his step dad and even his mom. He came to realize that his years as a male prostitute was a reparative drive that was unhealthy. All his life he had thought he was gay. He was totally shocked to discover he could have very strong sexual feelings for women in the past 5 years. So, apparently, it is different for different people. Bridget
Hi LaLaLove, Thanks for posting. I have never heard about a higher degree from having more kids (or wives). I know that the church teaches about spirit children waiting to get bodies and if you are healthy (mentally and phsyically) and financially able, they encourage couples to have children. A few years ago in RS, the RS president gave the lesson on having children, and made a big point about a mis-understanding couples have in the church. She said that too many young couples in the church (and we have a lot of young couples who are in Chiropractic college here in Davenport, Iowa), think that they should not plan their children and use no birth control, and have a bunch of kids they cannot financial,emotionally, or physically support. She said these couples think that the church will support them financially because they believe the church wants big families. She said that is not true and there has been a huge problem in the church with too many young couples with too many kids coming to the church for welfare assistance; that the church cannot afford to do this. It kind of surprised me but I was pleased actually because I had several VT companions who told me they never used birthcontrol because they believed that God would prevent it if he did not want them to have children.
One sister who was a recent convert to the church that I had befriended told me how she had gone to a church fireside where a Stake Pres. spoke who told the audience that couple should only have sex with the intent to get pregnant. She said, “I can’t get pregnant. Does that mean I should never be initimate with my husband?” These are the kind of stupidities some members have in the church and I think your information on your topic is one of them.
Hi ??? Thanks for updating us. Have you ever read the book, “In Quiet Desperation” by Ty Mansfield? I heard him speak at an Evergreen conference and had lunch with him. He is such a great and honest guy who has struggeled with his SSA as well but remains active in the church as a young single man. He just posted on the North Star lds forum for gays and their families and mentioned this:
There’s a brief narrative essay that addresses the topic of SSA in this month’s Ensign, “The Best Thing I Can Do for Leigh,” by Name Withheld, who consequently happens to be an ex-girlfriend of mine. It’s a pretty good essay, though I read a copy of this about three years ago when she first submitted it (when we were still together) and it’s pretty clear this has gone through Correlation. It doesn’t feel nearly as rich now as it did then–though, again, still good. Her sister is currently in a lesbian relationship.There have been about 5 articles in the Ensign on this subject in the past 10 years. In the church and at Evergreen conferences where I have heard GA’s talk, there is much less emphasis on being able to change now but much more on unconditional love of those who have this trial. That is kind of what this latest article is about in the Sept. Ensign. Another mom who has a gay son I am friends with, sent an article she had written on porngraphy to have published in the Ensign. They wrote her back that the Ensign does not write about such topics. Well, we know they do now. My sister in law who lives in St. George Utah worked for years to get the church to address child abuse in their area and no one would listen to her. But she persisted and her local officials finally opened their eyes to child abuse there. They just thought this could not happen in this lds community. Progress maybe slow, and people can be irratating, but persistence does pay off. I admire you for trying to do the right thing. I know it is not easy with all the conflicts inside of you.
Hi Katzar, Thank you for reminding me what is most important (relationship)! I also liked your last question about if she thought everyone before the Nicene creed was going to hell. I bore my testimony in fast and T. meeting yesterday about the incident. I said that I sometimes struggle with my testimony but life circumstances, like this with my daughter, helps me clarify what I do believe. I also mentioned how my daughter has negative associations with the Mormon church because kids were so mean to her when she was in Mutual. I asked the youth in the ward to reach out to those in the Mutual who are different or difficult as Christ would have us do. Perhaps it would have made a difference to my daughter if kids had been nicer to her. One incident I vividly remember is two of the deacon boys yanking my daughters purse from her in the church hallway and hitting her with it and calling her a ‘ho.’ She ran out of the church crying and ask me to take her home. Interestingly, enough, the YM’s president came outside about this time seeing my daughter cry and asked what was the matter. I told him what had happened and he asked me who the boys were. He said, “I will take care of this. These two boys (from prominent families in the ward) are trouble makers. I remember when they were being set apart for the priesthood, and one of the boys was giving the other the finger while being set apart. I immeadiately stopped the setting apart and chasened those boys.” So, at least I felt God’s hand was in this.
Sometimes, I do find myself feelilng anger towards my daughter and others in the family and I am having to learn to just let some things go or my resentment would show. Forgiveness is such a big part of this life.
Hi Heber, I am really glad you brought up this discussion. One of the biggest fights my husband and I had was on this topic. He was a high council man who had to travel to other wards to give talks. He also spent most Sundays doing his home teaching. I was so frustrated and unhappy that he had little time for me and the kids ( and almost no sex life)! One Sunday, I had it and told him we needed to talk because this was affecting our marriage. I told him I was too tired to cook and wanted to go out for dinner. He grudgingly went out to Culvers with me. The whole time he was edgy and said he was worried that some one from the church might see him there or that the waitress might be lds and see him. It made me soooo angry. I told him that if someone was here, then they should not complain anyway. Then he stressed how his calling had responsiblities and could destroy someones testimony if they saw him. Again, I was mad and told him that he made me feel like I was not important, only his calling was. We finally left the place early because he spoiled the whole thing. So, to me it is the spirit of the law that is important like Jesus taught about the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
I was in the 7th Day Adventist church for two years myself and did admire their dedication to what they believed God asked of them. When I learned though that they taught that the ‘mark of the beast’ was whether you worshipped on the true sabbath (which was Saturday to them), it lost me. I told them that certain Christians in China could only worhsip together on a Tuesday, and I did not believe God would doom them to hell for not worshipping on their true Sabbath.
So, I generally go to church on Sunday and do more spiritual things and do not go out to eat or buy things on the Sabbath, but I believe the spirit of law allows for ocassional birthday parties, outings, and eating out on Mothers Day.
I used to love reading “Prophecy, Key to the Future by Crowthers, “The Coming of the Lord’ by Lund, America’s Coming Crisis, by Balmforth, and “Spiritual Survial in the Last Days’ by Yorganson. I even read and saw all the “Left Behind’ movies my evangelical daughter gave me. I used to be quite an insecure person thinking that if I could prepare myself for everything I would not fear so much. Also, I read these books to strengthen my testimony as if all the prohecies came true, then the church was true. Well, I have come to learn that even though we should prepare for emergencies, the whole purpose of faith was not being ‘good’ for the big reward or fear of punishment, but so God could see what is in our hearts. How I live my everyday life matters much more to me now. nightwalden wrote:I wish that the environment of church would evolve to where people could express doubts openly. I push what for many are the boundaries of dissention in church. I do it so that anyone else who might feel alone won’t have to. I like this forum a lot. I think it can do a lot of good for many people.
I appreciate what you said here. I have always felt the same. I too have pushed the boundaries and was considered a bit of a rabble rouser. I was raised by convert parents who were deep thinkers and challenged the church teachings for many years before they joined. We always had lively discussions about the gospel at the dinner table and after general conferences. Each Sunday my dad would ask us what we had learned in our classes and what we thought about it. We loved Hugh B. Brown, an apostle of the church who said, “He who has never doubted, has never thought.” My dad told me that when he joined the church, he believed it was true, but said that if he ever found out it was not true, he would simply leave. We grew up believing that if something could not stand up to scrutiny it was founded on a weak foundation. The church used to encourage questioning. In fact, we had the series of books called, “Answers to tough gospel questions’ (or something like that). I loved reading those. I have a number of letters my dad wrote the prophets of his time with questions and got good replies. It seems that questioning is not as encouraged anymore (which really bothers me).
I believe God inspired this group for people like us. I had been fasting and praying one Sunday, months ago, about how to stay in the church when I felt like I could not relate to most members in my ward anymore. It seemed liked most members just accepted everything so blindly and were complacent. Opening and closing prayers were so trite and ritualistic with little thought involved or feeling. So much was just going through the motions so you would get into the Celestial Kingdom. They did not want their little comfortable worlds to be shaken. I don’t like my world to be shaken either. I like feeling secure and knowing my foundation is sound. But, I don’t want to be the niave little wife who ignores signs that her husband might be cheating or the mother who doesn’t want to believe her kids might be on drugs. I would rather know the truth and deal with that head on, because living a pipe dream will eventually burst your bubble. God gave us a brain and a heart to use both. I am an intelleigent woman with intuition. I reason out things, but I sense things as well when they don’t seem right. One of the most difficult things about the church I have had to deal with is the falliablity of church leaders, including the prophets. For so long, I was like a child who thought her parents were perfect (or at least really righteous). Then I come to find out my mom was mentally ill and my dad had a sex addiction. Yet they were still really good parents. So, now, even though I too, have had spiritual experiences and comfirmations of gospel principles, I don’t trust everything that comes out of the mouth of the church leaders. I have to think and pray about it and whether that fits for me or my family. The church can give general guidlines (like moms should not work outside the home) but I have to see if that is right for my family. So, when I was struggling with all this, a Danish friend of mine showed me to this group that Sunday and I knew God cares about the ‘One”. He cares about us ‘special cases” or maybe I should say us special ‘nut’ cases.
