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Good point Ray! So, how do you distinquish between the letter of the law and spirit of the law in regards to keeping you from exhaltation? I remember when I was on a missionary split with two elders going door to door in Austria. The two elders testified to this woman at the door that this was the true church and unless she accepted it, she could not be with her husband in the next life. When the lady told them off and slammed the door in our face, these two elders had the nerve to say, “Well, she had her chance.” I was so upset and told those elders, “Until a person has had the opportunity to hear the entire gospel of Jesus Christ, recognized it as true, and then accepts or rejects it, they have not had their chance. I asked them how they would like their chance to have been by some JW’s who came to the door and you rejected them? Why does it matter so much to evangelicals that you believe in the right trinity and that God would condmen you to hell for it. When I was in the 7th Day Adventist church for two years they believed the Mark of the Beast was whether you worshipped on the true Sabbath (Saturday) and only those who worhsipped on that day could be saved. So, the Chinese underground Christian who can only get together on a Tuesday evening to worship are condmened to hell? I thought that Christ was constantly trying to teach the spirit of the law over the letter? Hey Bill, Thank you sooo much for your support and kind words. My daughter is a zealot and goes to extremes all the time. She is a Vegan now with no meat, eggs, or dairy. My grandsons were so happy that I fixed normal meals for them. When I left, my grandsons called me and said that their mom has reverted back to being a tyrant again and is so unreasonable. It is hard for me to watch and I cannot interfere in their parenting even though I think they are really wrong sometimes. They have to say “Yes Mamm, and Yes Sir and are like drill sargents to the kids. They never feel safe to open up about their real feelings. My oldest son and youngest son are ticked off at their sister for telling me I will go to hell over the trinity. So, just finding common ground and being loving is best right now.
I would like the infor for my own information though. So, thank you. Bridget
Swimordie, You are funny! It is just frustrating to be handed so much anti-Mormon stuff by your kids and them telling you, you are going to hell when what they offer, make even less sense to me. Yet they think it is so logical.
Thanks Rix….I think you may be right. She will not change her thinking because of any rational reasons. Just loving her is best. Bridget Hi Poppyseed, Your honesty is always so refreshing! I have had numerous types of VT’s. Ones that just do their duty and check you off. Others who rarely come, and some who say just the wrong things to annoy you. I remember one VT rave to me how she had just paid her tithing and how God blessed her with a big check in the mail. I told her that I had just paid my tithing too, and my car broke down, the washer stopped working, my kids were in trouble, and my husband just found out he did not get the promotion we had hoped for. Another time I had just taken over a calling my VT had as ward activity director and she had the nerve to tell me how I was doing my calling wrong while VTing me. On the other hand I have had some of the best VT’s in the world that made such a difference in my life. One, usually brought treats for my kids and me but she said the spirit had told her to only bring fresh apples this time. I had just found out I was pre-diabetic and this was so encouraging to me. Another time, my VT was my RS president and she came by herself. I was having huge martial problems and she was there for me in affirming that I had done nothing wrong and God was on my side. It was such an answer to prayer. I just realize some people are inspired and others are not. I just take any good I can get.
Hi Kalola, What a great question and well needed. It reminds me of something my therapist did for my husband and I once when we were having martial problems. She had us look at a photo of a donut with a hole in the middle. She said, “You can choose to focus on the hole and what is missing in your relationship, or the donut part and all the good.” I was raised in the church and even though I have some issues and problems and doubts about the church, here is what the church has done for me personally:
1. I never smoked or drank beause of being raised in the church and am more health minded. I have good friends who are so hooked on smoking and their life is miserable because of it.
2. Because of the churches teachings on morality, I was not promiscous, and never got pregnant out of wedlock or got a disease, and complicated my life.
3. From going on a mission and having so many church callings and giving talks since a little girl in church, I overcame my shyness, and became a good teacher and had so many spiritual experiences in preparing lessons. It also forced me to become more unselfish, serve others, and mature as a person.
4. As a teen, my mutual teachers helped me through difficult times when I had no real mom as she was so mentally ill.
5. So, often when I would go to church, the lessons taught are just what I needed to hear that day and an answer to prayer.
6. My closest girlfriends are from the church who have helped me through so many trials. Some of my visiting teachers are helped me through some really tough times.
7. I learned songs and hymns from very young that I still recall that come to mind when I need them most. One was “Though Deepen Trials wend your way.” A home teacher came by once and sang the whole song about Christ and him being the answer.
8. I came to Christ as a little girl because of the stories I heard of Jesus and learned how to love my enemies.
So much good stuff in the church…and good people. It is important not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Dear Green, Thank you for explaining that sleep disorder. That clears up something that happened to me 35 years ago which scared me to death. I had been sleep deprived with a new colicky baby (my first). It was a new years eve and I had spent the whole day hating my mother in law. She was a very cruel woman. When I woke up I could hear my baby crying in the other room, but I could not move or talk. I felt paraylized and I suddeniy felt an evil precense in the room laying on top of me trying to kill me. In my mind I kept saying, “in the name of Jesus Christ be gone.” I was so frightened and it took several times of sayng that before I was unparalyized and coud wake up and move around. I had decided that my being filled with so much hate the day before must have brought Satan on the scene and I swore from that day on I would never hate anyone again. It is good to understand now what had happened because I was so traumatized from it. I have also had dreams where I thought I was awake but wasn’t and I don’t like those kind of dreams either as it takes waking up from several dreams before I am actually awake. Yet it seems so real that I woke up and am not awake.
Read my intro Green and tell me what you think…I would rather live my life based on truth and reality than a pipe dream because I do not want the bubble to burst later. So, I admire thinkers like you and those on this group who are not afraid to face the truth. Bridget
Hi Poppyseed, Thank you for having the courage to share your honest feelings. There is nothing wrong with your logic and emotions. I do believe in chasity and being moral. I know that our passions can be used in healthy ways and unhealthy ways. Read the post I just made about how to talk to your kids about the birds and the bees. You have a powerful perspective from seeing sexual addiction problems in your family and having a gay brother reap some bad consequences.. It is understandable that you have these questions. I do not think that having problems or having been abused should be used as an excuse to hurt others. I think it is best to keep sex in a marriage situation for many reasons. Even in marriage things can be abused. You are right that this is not a simple situation to figure out. I have always wanted all 3 of my kids to wait until marriage to have sex. Our society today confuses our kids so much and none of my 3 kids waited. They all reaped bad consequences too. My daughter had a baby out of wedlock at 16 and it had many long term consequences. My gay son got a bad STD from his first sexual experience. Masturbation, which I think is a normal release, can be abused just like anything else and is better than going out and having sex with others. Yes, God did tell me to see my son as in the story of the blind man and that it is not his fault that he has these feelings. Should a blind man not be allowed a normal life? Therefore, I would like to see gay marriage so that gay relationships can be in committed relationship instead of permiscous. I do not like all this fooling around. I truly understand why you are so conflicted and I have often felt conflicted myself and still do sometimes. Because, I don’t have a strong testimony of church leaders and that they are always right, I can only go by my own personal inspiration.
Keep sharing…this is good. Bridget
I did not know that thyroid meds could cause that. I have been on Armour thyroid the past 5 years for an under active thyroid. I was 35 when I had my gay son but was not on it then. But, I did have a lot of problems with that pregnancy and my lympathic system was on overload. You know, there was a time when I believed all that stuff in that article. I was heavy into ex-gay change ministries and had all sorts of fears about the gay lifestyle. I read books on the diseases my son could get and how awful gay sex was. It could literally scare a mom to death. Thank goodness my Danish doctor friend, who did live a very promiscuous gay lifestyle for 15 years, was able to teach me the facts and understand homosexuality so much better. Diseases among straights, and child abuse among straights is even worse he showed me.
So, I totally agree with you on protecting our children from child abuse and other things. We must be constantly vigilant. Bridget
just me wrote:I agree that being open and honest is always best. Casual conversations where children can ask questions and set the pace are always good.
I’m not sure what you mean by “I’ve become very “open-minded” (I know, shocking) in my thinking on boundaries for sexual exploration for growing young people.”
I think regardless of where we “draw the line” for our children we will all have to frankly discuss the dangers of sexual contact as a young person and as a non-commited person. My friend got HPV her very first experience and it has had long term effects on her health. I think we have to be honest with ourselves and our children. More than half the population have an STD. One in four teens contract an STD each year. That is information I want my youth to know because it is a scary, unavoidable fact.
Above all, they need to understand and know that sex is about more than physical pleasure. There are mental and emotional components whether we/they want there to be or not.
I agree justme….my gay son got one of the worst cases of oral gonorrehea that our doctor had seen in 20 years from his first sexual experience. In fact, his throat was so swollen shut, our doctor said he could have died. It scared all of us to death and yet he still does not practice safe sex that my Danish doctor friend has tried to teach him.
Swimordie, I am glad you brought up this good and important topic. My parent’s generation (WWII) rarely talked about this. Here’s how bad it was. My poor mom had heard about sex as a young woman but was not sure what it really was. She went out on a date with a guy who french kissed her and she thought that must be it. She went home that night and cried her eyes out that she had lost her virginity. My dad who only had 5 brothers growing up, knew nothing about girls and menstral cycles. So, the first time he was with my mom, she apparently had her period and my poor dad thought he had hurt her. He rushed her to the emergency room (my mom too scared to say anything) and the interns laughed their head off at my dad that he knew nothing about womens periods.
Because my mom was so mentally ill after surviving WWII in Germany, I could never talk to my mom about these kind of subjects. Fortunately, my father was a great mom and dad both, and my sister and I could talk to him about anything. I lived in Covina California when I was in 5th grade and they showed a movie to us boys and girls together about our bodies and some sex ed. Everyone just giggled and looked uncomfortable. I really think they should have boys and girls watch these type of movies separately. Anyway, I was 10 and a half when I got my first period and it kind of frightened me. I went to my dad about it and what a gem he was. He lovingly told me that this is a wonderful thing that has happened and means that I can be a mother someday. He made me feel so good about myself and then took me out for ice cream and a burger to celebrate. These are memories you never forget and have a lasting impact.
Then when I was 13 and my sister was 11 my dad asked us if we knew what sex was. This is while my dad was driving on the LA freeway with us. My sister immeadiately said ‘Yes’ which surprised me and I said ‘No.” My dad ask us what we did know and then explained what it was to us. I was in shock and said, “Well, I am never getting married if you have to do that.” My dad just laughed and said, “Don’t worry, you will change your mind someday. At this time, my dad often took my sister and I to the drive-in, which we loved. But, I will never forget one time when the theatre showed a pre-movie documentary in black and white about syphllis and gonorrehea and other sexually transmitted diseases. It was very graphic and the diseases looked awful. I guess because so many teens came to drive-ins to make out, this was preventive measure in California at the time. Besides being taught at church that sexual sin was the sin next to murder, this movie, and not wanting to get pregnant, scared me enough to behave.
Unfortunately, it was only 5 years ago that I found out why my sister already knew about sex so early. My oldest brother had died, who was 9 years older, and my sister finally told me he had sexually abused her from the age of 5-16. That was such horrible news to me as this was my favorite brother growing up. It took me some time to turn this all over to God.
When I was pregnant with my last child (the gay one), my oldest son was 9 and my daughter was 7. I had this wonderful pictorial book on how a baby grows in the womb. So, I was explaining to my daughter each of the photos which showed eggs and sperm etc. She was very interested and asked alot of questions. She finally wanted to know how the sperm got into the mommy. So, I explained sex to her. Well, my oldest son overheard me telling his sister this and comes running in yelling, “Mom, don’t tell my sister all this…she’ll blab it all over the neighborhood.” So then I had to explain to her the sacredness of this intimacy so she would understand that this is from Heavenly Father and only meant to be when you get married. It is interesting, and a problem when raised in the church, because all your life growing up you are told “No, you should not do this. It is serious sin, and to be clean and chaste.” Suddenly, you get married and your are supposed to turn on a ‘switch’ in your head and now its a good thing and healthy and moral. I can’t tell you how many new brides have come to me crying and scared wanting to know about men and even seeing a guy naked for the first time.
I am sorry but there is one thing that I think the church is wrong on and that is on the subject of masturbation. The guilt and need to lie even, has been horrible for the youth and members. So, the following links is where my husband refferred our sons to on this subject and it was such a relief for them. I think this is a much more healthy approach:
http://boysunderattack.com/masturbation.html http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/masturbation_help.htm Thanks for this post! Quite coincidently, I am seeing Carol Lynn’s daughter, Emily Pearson today. She’s a great friend and has quite an amazing story herself…but that’s another thread. I am glad to hear the story of the Danish guy…and so glad to hear he has found peace. This issue is definitely a challenge for the caring leaders of the church, and a difficult one to “save face” with. Carol Lynn and Emily are doing their part to help the church evolve. Their play “Facing East” has done well on Broadway, and they just got funding to make it into a movie. It is a powerful, heart-breaking movie about an LDS couple at the cemetary after burying their gay son who just took his life. The dialogue is so familiar to us…then the partner shows up (the first time they’ve met him). The show will rip your heart out! But it really makes you feel compassion for the gays in the church.
I deeply hope we will see a change soon. Our people don’t need to suffer like they do.[/quote]
I have read a little about Emily Pearson’s story. If I recall correctly she had had a very difficult time with her dad being gay and married a man that ended up being gay too. That it was very confusing to her for awhile because she believed God would help her get over the trauma of her dad. Instead, she ended up having to understand this issue (and what her mom went through) even more. I have also heard about ‘Facing East’. A lds SSA friend of mine in St. George Utah saw it while it played there. He is a far right wing, letter of the law kind of guy, who stands firmly with the church, but he did say it was very compassionate and heartfelt. I have talked to Stuart Matis’s parents several times (their son killed himself on the doorsteps of the stake center in Calif) and they wrote about their story “In Quiet Desperation”. I recall reading in our son’s journal which he kept during his teen years (we were desperate not knowing what was wrong, so read it). Our sweet son, who never swore and was so kind and loving, said the most horrible things about himself when he discovered his same-sex attraction. It always bothered me when I had read some church leaders say that it would be better to be dead than unchaste. Well, I would rather have my beautiful son gay and unchaste, than dead.
