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THANK YOU, Rix and Othelia. I appreciate your comments very much!! I am so thankful that my Danish friend told me about Staylds.com. It was really an answer to prayer because I just did not know where I fit in anymore and had no place to ask serious questions. I brought my Danish friend (who read my book and it actually helped him discover that his childhood abuse caused his SSA and that he had alot of heterosexual potential) to the church 4 years ago. He showed me this link written by a gay psychologist which explains why some straight men do homosexual behavior
http://straightguise.com/ . This was his situation. Since joining the church and getting through the honeymoon stage, he is now in the disilliounment stage in the church. He is so angry with some of the things in church history and prop 8 that he did not know about when he joined and feels betrayed right now. But, he realizes he upsets me too much anymore with all his negativity about the church and was kind enough to find me this place with like people who still want to be a part of the church and love much about it, but have sincere questions.So, whoever started this group- THANK YOU and the essay on your website about how to stay lds is excellent.
Hi Poppyseed…. I appreciate your questions. Having a gay brother who won’t even talk about it must be difficult for you and your family. First of all I want you to know it was very very hard for me to change my thinking on this. I did believe that homosexual behavior was wrong as the church taught but there were things that church leaders said about homosexuality and homosexuals that really bothered me. For example, the chapter on homosexuality in Spencer W. Kimballs book, “The Miracle of Forgiveness’ was so harsh and really insulted alot of lds gays and their families in the church. Brother Spencer even admitted to his nephew that he felt he had been too harsh on homosexuals in his book. Then Boyd K. Packer said in the Phamplet “To The One’ that homosexuality was caused by selfishness’ and that really upset me because my son was one of the most unselfish, loving young men I had ever met. So I agree with Rix that church leaders are often uneducated about this issue and have their hangups. Here is a great link written by a active lds father of a gay son to Boyd K. Packer about his feelings on this: http://www.lds-mormon.com/hardy.shtml I so agree with this dad.My Danish doctor friend who read my book used to laugh at me and call me “The Plumbing Expert’ of the midwest. I used to tell my son, “Well that’s just not natural” and he would say to me, “Well, it feels natural to me mom.” And then I would answer back with, “Well, that’s because you are screwed up!” And then we would burst out laughing. I also believed that just because something felt natural, did not make it right. I did have a powerful spiritual experience when I was trying to figure out how to end my book. It was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life in which God told me to see my son as in the story of the blind man in the Bible. In Jesus day it was thought that you or your parents had sinned if you were Blind. So when the people asked Jesus whose fault it was that this man was born blind, he said that it was neither this mans fault or his parents but to show forth the glory of God. I personally believe that those with homosexual feelings were some of the most loving of God’s spirits who were willing to take on this trial on earth. How people treat homosexuals or anyone who is different is one of the tests of this earth life. I am left handed for example and my dad tried to push me to become right handed. He said, “It’s a right handed world and you need to get used to it or your life will be difficult.” I did become somewhat ambi-dextrous but I still eat and write with my left hand and manage life quit nicely. So, even though I wish my son could become straight and marry a girl, have kids etc, how can I tell him he cannot have a life. I have seen the misery with gays in the church.
It is hard for me to go against the church on things. I want to believe our church leaders are inspired in all things, but I have come to see they aren’t always, but have their own prejudices. I don’t recall where I read this but I remember something about Gordon Hinckley apologizing to Black people when the men got the Priesthood. He admitted that he had had prejudices against them and never thought they would get the priesthood in this life. So, even though I still don’t completely understand why some people have these feelings, my heart tells me they deserve to live a happy life of their own. Like I said before, how can it be a loving thing to ask our gay brothers and sisters to live a celibate life where they can never express feelings of phsyical affection, or date, or marry. At least straight singles are allowed that. On top of that the church tells singles to never masturbate either because it is a gross sin. LDS youth end up lying to their leaders all the time in order to not look bad. When Jesus was asked, “What is the greatest commandment, we know he said that all the laws and prophets hang upon whether they are based on the principle of love. So, I don’t need to remember a bunch of commandments but ask myself what is the loving thing to do here. Here are two other links that may help you:
http://mormonsformarriage.com/?page_id=14 andhttp://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/masturbation_help.htm Bridget
There was a time that I thought homosexual behavior was wrong and would affect society and families in a bad way. When my son was 10 years old, in 5th grade, he came home from school one day and told me, “Well, I know how gays do it now?” I said, “What? What are you talking about? What are they teaching you at school?” He said that “Planned Parenthood’ had come into his health class and showed them how gays do it.” I was very upset and said, “Where are the ‘release slips’ schools are supposed to give parents to sign when there are sex ed classes in school?” He said he had lost his (convenietly lost, as kids don’t want to be pulled out of those classes and looked at funny by the others). So, I took the opportunity to talk to my son about this (having no clue at the time that he could have these tendencies). He was 16 before he became aware of his same-sex attractions to one of his best friends (who is straight). I asked my son if he knew what the Bible said about homosexuality? He said, ‘No,’ and I proceeded to tell him that it says that homosexuality is an abomination. We then proceeded to discuss what the word abomination was (mainly, that it was a terrible thing). I did distinquish that God did not say gays were an abomination but just gay sex. I then asked him if he knew why God would say such behavior is wrong. He said he did not know. My answer at the time was that it stopped God’s plan of creation and bringing spirit children to earth because gays could not create babies. I even said that ‘abortion’ and homosexuality were Satan’s plan to stop spirit children from coming on this earth. I mistakenly believed people choose to have those feelings at that time which meant they choose to be sinful. Step forward, 6 years, to when we found out our son is gay. I was a wreck at the time, not understanding why our son had these feelings and wanting him to get therapy to overcome this. One day, during this time, my son said to me, “Mom, God hates gays, doesn’t he?” I said, “No, God loves gays, he just hates gay sex.” Then my son told me that ‘unless I accept homosexuality, I don’t love him.” I replied back with, “Son, I don’t expect you to love my fat thighs in order to love me, so don’t expect me to love gay sex in order to love you.” During all those years of us arguing back and forth, we were actually very respectfull. Since that time, I have come to learn that there are so many misconceptions about homosexuality and homosexuals. When my daughter found out about her brother being gay, she became concerned as to whether she could leave him alone with her two small sons anymore. I was able to talk to my son about that and he was not defensive and understood that people have this misconception that gays might also be pedophiles, especially after the Catholic priest abuse came out. The whole reason this Danish pro-gay youth allowed me to publish our letters and conversations to each other in my book, was to show those on both sides of this issue how to understand each other better in a respectful, loving way. One of the reasons I like this staylds group so much is because of the respectful way we try to discuss things and understand each other. A Danish friend and I started a yahoo group for familes with members on both sides of this issue to discuss how to handle these kind of problems in our families. Here is the link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FamilyReconciliation/ Sunstone December 2008 magizine did a great job in discussing Prop. 8 and sharing thoughts from those on both sides of this issue from members. I have always liked Steven Covey’s quote “Seek first to understand, then to be understood.” My Danish friends have helped me see that ‘Gay Marriage’ in their country has worked well over the years. Churches are not required to believe or say that homosexuality is right if they think it is wrong. They still have their freedom of speech and gays are allowed to have equal rights and live their lives as they want. It has not adversly affected straight marriages or families in anyway. Over the years I have come to see that most people with a same-sex attraction cannot change their feelings and does have a genetic component. For the church to ask them to live celibate lives and not even have the possiblity of dating or affection (as single straights can), plus have people look at them like they are bad perverts, is asking the impossible. This is why I support ‘Gay Marriage.” One of the happiest days of my son’s life was when I told him this and that I would love him for himself. He cried such tears of joy. ‘Acceptance is our greatest need. Rejection, our greatest fear.
Bridget
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=12053 What a great article this is. I wish I had learned this lesson many years ago. I used to personalize almost everything and drove myself nuts (and my family as well). My daughter is bi-polar and we did not know that growing up. I took everything she said and did so personally while the next day she acted like it was no big deal. What a horrible roller coaster ride I was on. I used to blame myself for everything. So, when my oldest son did a suicide attempt at 13, I cried for a year. When we found out our youngest son was gay, I anguished over all the things my husband and I must have done wrong. When my husband no longer wanted intimacy with me I blamed myself for being over weight etc. Instead we later find out that I had little to do with any of my families problems. It took me a long time to learn not to make others responsible for my happiness and become a more independent person. A book, I really liked that I believe God led me to was called: “Living Successfully with Screwed-Up People”
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Successfully-Screwed-Up-People-Elizabeth/dp/0800757084 The cover of the book really caught my eye and the book showed me how to not let others mess up my life. It’s a process internalizing all these lessons and practicing them, but its great when you succeed once in a while.
I want to share an interesting story with you. Twenty years ago, when I was working in a plush hair salon in Eugene, Oregon, I had a customer who would fly in from San Francisco. She had become famous and was to appear on some big talk shows because of an unusual “out of body” experience. She told me to share her story whenever possible. This woman had lived a self-centered, fairly wicked life. She had many questions about life and feared what the next life would bring. She had been a diabetic for 8 years on insulin. As she was taking a taxi to the airport one morning, she realized she had forgotten to eat breakfast and had not taken her insulin. In fact, she forgot to take insulin with her as she had felt so rushed. She began to go into diabetic shock and quickly asked the taxi driver to go back; that she needed her insulin. At this point she became aware that she was standing outside the taxi and looking in at he limp body. She also noticed a man in white appearing next to her. She was not afraid and seemed to be ready with her questions. The first question she asked was “Is there really such a being as the Devil”? The being in white said, “I’ll let you see.” Suddenly the being disappeared and everything became very dark. So black and dark you could cut it with a knife. She became aware of the presence of the most awful being coming towards her which frightened her enough to say, “Ok, I don’t need to know anymore”.
The darkness left and the light and heavenly being returned. Well, you’d think she’d leave well enough alone, but she then asked her next question. “Is there really such a place as hell”? The heavenly being said again, “Ill let you see.” She then said she experienced true hell, but it was not as she had anticipated it to be. Her whole life began flashing before her and she re-lived every awful thing she had done to people. She had to feel the anguish and pain others went through because of her actions on earth. Also, she saw the ripple effect it had on others. It was the most horrible experience. She woke up in the hospital and the doctor knew she had gone through something traumatic and asked her if she had an “out of body” experience. She told him about it and then said just before she came to, the heavenly being told her that her time on earth was not up yet and she needed to go back. She was to know that this experience was not just a figment of her imagination, because she would no longer have diabetes or need to be on insulin when she returned. The doctor checked her out and she did not have diabetes and has not been on insulin since. This experience happened 3 years prior to my meeting her.
Rix wrote:swimordie wrote:
Many years ago I was forced to leave. I didn’t know what to do after getting out of bed in the morning. My entire purpose of life, and each day’s activity, was dictated by the church. I literally went to live in the wilderness hoping that nature would heal my soul.It did.
My life since then has been indescribably ecstatic. When you don’t need others to tell you you’re okay, there’s no reason not to be!
~Rix
Rix, What do you mean when you said you were forced to leave the church? So, you are not in the church now? And your life is ecstatic now?
Explain more please?
The reason I ask is that my husband left the church about 3 years ago and things are so much better in our marriage since he left. He is much easier to get along with now and happier as a person. Every time people ask me at church how my husband is doing (he was in the high council for years before he left), I am not quite sure what to say. So many suppose that his life must be miserable now that he has left the church and our marriage would be on the rocks. I tell my visiting teacher, who is also the bishops wife,” I can’t exactly get up in fast and testimony meeting and say that things are so much better since my husband has left the church.” Mind you, his leaving really did not have anything to do with the church being wrong for us, but he is a perfectionist and was always gone in callings and had no time for us. His personality type used the gospel as a hammer to hit us over the head with in obeying ALL the commandments strictly. He had joined the church on an intellectual testimony and thought the spiritual one would come. It never did and that is why he finally left after 30 years in the church and my telling him if he does not change, I’m leaving. I felt the spirit witness to me that God withheld a testimony from him so he would not be even more of a tyrant with the gospel over his family. Now, not knowing whether the church or gospel is true or not, he is not so controlling and shows more love and concern for not losing his family.
Rix wrote:Hi ???,
I I will add my 2 cents (maybe that’s all it’s worth).
As background, I have many family members and friends that are gay/lesbian…including my sister. I have seen depression, suicide, drug addiction, and deep emotional pain because of the guilt they feel. I have dealt with it from the position of a brother, friend, drug counselor, and bishop. I will echo the sentiment that has been said:
the church doesn’t know how to deal with the issue.That doesn’t mean they aren’t trying their best to figure it out…and to do the best they can with what they know, but we continue to see at least one obituary a day in the Utah papers of one who has taken his/her life because of the hell they were living in. The church can’t change, or train their leaders fast enough to make the needed change to finally give the LGBT people true unconditional love and acceptance.
~Rix
Rix,,,your comments are worth at least 25 cents!! I always enjoy reading your posts. Have you read Carol Lynn Pearson’s books “Goodbye I love You” and No more goodbyes? So many lds parents of gay children worry about suicide with their kids, so this is very important. The June 1999 issue of Sunstone magizine had the best article called “Pastoring the Far Side: on making a place for believing homosexuals. I see changes, but they are slow. I know that Prophet Hinckley has a gay nephew and a number of GA’s have family members with this issue so they are being forced to look at it. Years ago, I met a young Danish man at an Evergreen conference who had served a mission from Denmark in Salt Lake City. He so much wanted to be able to change and be accepted by his parents and ward. His dad was a police office and Stake president in Copenhagen at one time. I met with this young man recently while I was in Denmark. He told me that hiding and living in the closet and trying to change had just become to much for him and he was suicidle. He finally went a psychiarist for clinical depression. He had been one of the most unhappy men when I met him. After accepting his homosexuality and becoming a marathan runner and finding a boyfriend, he is now a whole new person and so happy and vibrant instead of shy and insecure. He was so sweet and took me to see the Copenhagen temple. He said he is not hostile towards the church and loved his mission. He said the church is good for many people but it did not work for him. So, this needs to change.
I would love to listen to those interviews. Where are they posted? You are right about gay marriage. I recently got back from Europe and met the Danish young man I wrote my book with ( see link ) http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=12053 Bill, I appreciate your sincerity and admitting that you had a bad attitude once about gays. Most members do not understand this issue at all and I have had to do so much educating in my ward and stake. Too many people do think homosexuals choose these feelings and see them as pervets and wicked. If they could see the anquish these lds gay youth and adults go through when they discover these feelings, it would make them cry. So much suicide and self-loathing go on with our homosexual members and I have found them to be some of the most valiant and beautiful spirits. Who would choose such a challenge. I remember two lesbian young women in our ward who were trying to live the gospel. My visiting teachers home taught them and ask me to help them understand homosexuality. I showed them a wonderful video about that and it made such a difference in how they treated these young women then. The lesbian women wanted to go with these visiting teachers to Nauvoo to see the new temple, but the VT husbands would not allow it because they thought the lesbian women might hit on their wives. It really upset me.
One good bit of news is that because of the backlash from Prop 8, the church told our stake leaders to not get members involved with trying to stop gay marriage in Iowa, where I live. My son was so happy to here that the state he grew up in now allows gay marriage.
Thanks for your reply poppyseed. Yeah my husband was pretty shocked too. It made me learn the importance of making each member feel good for asking a question when I was a teacher in various callings. People will not open up if they do not feel safe and then no learning or progress can be made. Just like the Pharisees and Sadducces in Jesus day, we have them in the church today. It is important to separate people from the gospel or we could loose our testimonies. I have also had to learn to forgive people so much more. I had a bishop that really bothered me because he was such a ‘letter of the law’ type of guy. It would drive me nuts when he would speak from the pulpit and say stuff like, “If you would just obey all the commandments, you wouldn’t have any problems.” Well, first of all we know that is not a true statment, but he seemed so cold and heartless. He also made my 13 year old son cry once after an interview with him and my son would not tell me what it was about. So, I wrote him a private letter telling him what was bothering me. He never called or replied back and I waited 3 months. I was pretty close to leaving the church at that time anyway, but, I prayed about it and I remembered a scripture in the D& C about if someone has offended you to go to them privately and try and talk it out. So, I made an appointment with this Bishop and was very nervous as I went in as he always seemed so intimidating to me. I asked him if he had gotten my letter and he said yes. I then asked him why he never contacted me and he said he did not realize that I wanted a reply. Well, it was obvious that he is not good in getting social ques. But, an amazing thing happened and he opened up to me about how this calling is about the worst calling he could ever get because he really hates socializing and being with people. He shared how when he was a little boy, he was thin and gangly and played baseball so badly. He was made fun of by his peers and instructors and that started his journey of not feeling comfortable around people. It ended up being a wonderful one on one and he treated me so good after that. He was my best adovcate as a GD teacher after that too. So, I have learned that all of us are just screwed up children in adult bodies doing the best we can and need to help each other.
One of the most difficult things I have had to deal with in church, is being able to express honest doubts or questions that wouldn’t shake others faith or make people uncomfortable. Every once in a while I would bring ups sincere questions that I thought others might have too and many times it worked out well. After class others would privately tell me how much they appreciated that because they had had those same questions. I recently got a wonderful card in the mail from my RS president, who happens to be my visiting teacher, as well. She wrote how much she appreciated my comments in class because of the wisdom and insights I had gleamed from all my trials. That card meant the world to me. Other times, I would have experiences where a gospel doctrine teacher would humilate me in front of the whole class for asking a certain question. We had a medical doctor who taught GD who was a bit full of himself and prided himself in knowing almost everything. I had been struggling with a faith question and decided to ask it in class. The question was, “How does one know if they are really getting an answer from God in prayer or because you want something so badly you auto-suggestion and answer your own prayer, or if Satan is trying to mis-lead you. Well, I guess I took this teacher by surprise and he had no answer and got very flustered and angry. He suddenly says in a loud voice to me in front of the whole class, “Sister Night’ why did you even join this church in the first place?” Well, everybody was shocked and held their breath. Well, it ticked me off and so I flashed back with, “Because my parents forced me to when I was 8 years old.” Thank goodness the bell rang then to dismiss class because the whole room was filled with the most uncomfortable spirit.” Recently, we had a Sunday School lesson where the teacher wrote on the board a list of names of those who had been very loyal to JS and valiant in the church but then left the church and betrayed JS. William Law was one of them that I knew a little bit about. I simply asked the teacher if he knew why these men had left the church. He did not seem to know and most of the class did not either. I decided against telling what I knew because it might sound like I was against the church. It is my understanding that William Law had a big argument with JS because JS had asked his wife to become one of his plural wives and this had been very upsetting to Sister Law and him. William Law was the owner of the Expositor Newspaper in Nauvoo and he published his beliefs that JS was a polygmast. This upset JS and so he had the expositor destroyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Law_(Latter_Day_Saints) The reason this couplet is so meaningful to me is that praying to a God that I knew had gone through earthly sufferings and could understand my trials and pain, made me feel that He really understood and cared. A number of times I have experienced spiritual arms surrounding me with hugs and warmth with powerful thoughts that He understood my deep pain, and was weeping with me. I could never pray to the God that had no ‘body parts, and passions and just filled the air.” I relate to God through his Son Jesus Christ. When I saw “Passion of the Christ’ it was almost too much to bear, but it really made me realize how much God must love us. Bridget This is a very interesting discussion and I appreciate all the comments. I too remember the lessons in RS that were more oriented for the sisters. I taught Social Relations, Cultural Refinement, Homemaking Ed. etc and I loved those lessons. There have been times though that I did not feel like I fit into the church because I was more of a career woman and not a ‘Molly Mormon’ who loved homemaking activities or was good with children. I recall reading an article of a presentation put on KSL Radio, called, “Mormon Women and Depression’ because so many women in Utah were taking anti-depressants. I so related to the women in the article at that time. This is why I am actually very happy that the church is changing its emphasis in the Gospel Principles manual. They are going from less emphasis on obedience of all the commandments, perfectionism, and works for exhaltation to more emphasis on faith in Christ and works will follow. Anita Canfield’s book, “Self-Esteem for the LDS woman” really helped me feel like I could still fit into the church. I realize now that the church gives general guidlines and then each individual must decide what is best for them and their family. Sister Canfield pointed out how Jesus picked very different apostles with different strengths and weaknesses and that it was alright to be different. I also liked the change in the manual about how the church was not really complete in the beginning but that the church is constantly developing. It is obvious from church history that church leaders were influenced by the thinking of it’s time. This relates to the black issue, temple ceremony, and women. For example, On Dec. 29, 1978 the First Presidency allows women to pray in sarament meetings again (under “Report of the Seminar for Regional Representatives” rescind earlier ban from July 1967. The internet has opened up a whole new world to investigators, converts, and members in being able to study church history and seeing the changes in the church. This can be confusing at times and perhaps this is why the church does not encourage questioning as much as it used to.
I occasionally had a difficult time when I was teaching gospel doctrine (4 years) and Investigators class (4 years) because I enjoyed bringing in outside material that was relative to the lesson once in a while. Then I was suddenly told that we could not use anything accept the 4 standard works and the Ensign. Now I understood that some members apparently where going ‘gung ho’ and putting stuff in their lessons that was far out (like becoming a survialist in the wilderness with guns and food). So, then I reminded my ward leaders that I hear GA’s regularly quote Mother Teresa or Billy Graham in their General conference talks and that the 13th article of faith talks about anything that is praise worthy or of good report we seek after these things. All they told me then was that GA’s are much more perfect than us and so they could do that. Well, you can imagine how that ticked me off and I told them that I could no longer teach then. I know that GA’s have their weaknesses and hang-ups just like the rest of good members and so this offended me.
Boyd K. Packer set me apart for my mission in Austria in 1969 (when apostles still did that). One of the things I was told by him is that I should ‘obey the priesthood’, no matter what while I was on my mission. Well, there was an incident where that was actually good advice. We used to have missionary splits then where one sister could go tracting with two elders. Our zone leader would always pick me as the sister for the split. Well, while out on one of these splits, this Zone leader suddenly decides that we should stop tracting and go watch this football game on the side. I mentioned that this was not the purpose of our mission and that I did not feel right about it. Well, suddenly this Zone leader got really mad and in a loud voice told me that ‘he had the priesthood, and I was to obey being a female.” Well, it frightened me and so I recalled what Br. Packer had told me and said ok. So we watched this football game for the next two hours. When I got home, I reported this to the mission president and it got taken care of and I got transferred. So, I do understand that Priesthood leaders are inspired and there are many things that we may not understand or agree with. When Adam and Eve were asked why they were offering animal sacrifice they said they knew not accept they were commanded. On the other hand, I also believe we must get our own confirmation whether what a Priesthood leader is telling us is true. Other wise you get a Jeff Warrens type of situation.
I was disturbed when Br. Packer said that Feminists, Intellectuals, and homosexuals were the biggest threat to the church. On April 4, 1987, First Counselor Gordon B. Hinckley tells priesthood session of confernce that ‘marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations of practice…” This reverses decades long policy formulated by Spencer W. Kimball. In the meantime, one of my favorite companions had her whole marriage destroyed because their bishop had told her finance to just marry and it would cure his Same-sex attraction. So, as far as this relates to my role as a woman in the church, I guess I have to stick with the importance of getting my own personal revelation to confirm whatever women are directed to do in the church. I know this is what a number of women did whom JS asked them to be a plural wife.
Jeriboy, I can only imagine how difficult this must be for young and older men in the church. Some of the priesthood leaders have told me that when they give blessings and don’t really have any definite inspiration, they just say what they hope will happen and then end it with ‘God’s will be done.” According to what I understand in the gospel, ‘that all are not given the same gifts.’ I have heard some Priesthood men say that their Patriarchal blessings told them they would have a special gift for ‘healing’ others to get well and they seemed to have success with that. Although, when I was on my mission in Austria and got very sick, an elder who said his P. blessing said he had that gift and wanted to bless me, I did not get well and had to be sent home. I was out 20 months by then and in my heart really wanted to go home. I noticed in the changes in the new manual on another thread I started that Chp. 2 was changed with taking out the part that P. Blessings teach you your ‘talents and callings’ and replaced with learning your ‘eternal posssiblities.’ That is interesting because I got my P. blessing at 12 and it basically told me I should prepare myself to go on a mission and my told my husband he would be a bishop (though he has left the church now). Of course these are always predicated on righteousness as I understand. The main point of my last post was simply the frustration I feel in not having any place at church (Sunday School, etc) where a person feels really free to voice sincere questions or experiences that aren’t usual, without shaking others faiths or being looked at like you are weird.
