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Thanks for that info Jolly on adding a picture.

You are right–It is difficult understanding how the Priesthood works. Especially, since my husband rarely ever felt he got inspiration and then to have it so strong each of the 3 times he blest her, really shook him up. A friend of ours had a similar experience when he was a young man going with his dad to bless someone. His dad wanted his son to have an experience with the priesthood and asked his son to give the blessing. He felt strongly impressed to tell this woman that there would be no cancer when she went to the doctor in the morning. Well, she had cancer all over they found out. This poor young man said he walked around for hours in a fog, and daze crying. It seems we only hear the success cases at church and there is no place (except here) that I have found you can talk about when things don’t go right or difficult questions. For example, I do have a testimony that man can become like heavenly Father and a ‘little g-god). The temple ceremonies tell us that, yet I have had some very negative experiences in the temple that disturbed me. So, while everyone in RS is talking about how wonderful it is to go through the temple, I don’t feel like I can share my negative experiences anywhere. Bridget

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Before I make my comments.. How do you add a neat photo to your name like so many of you have here?

This is an interesting and important discussion. I have had some powerful spiritual experiences that have really helped me in my life. One example is when I prayed whether our family should move to Florida from Oregon. We had just traded some property in Ashland Oregon and my husband wanted to stay there. But, I felt so driven to move to Florida, so we prayed and fasted about it one more time. The first Sunday, I went to the Ashland ward and entered the Relief Society room, there was a beautiful painted mural covering one of the entire walls in the room. It was a drawing of “Cypress Gardens Florida.” Now, where has anyone ever seen that before in a RS room? Well, we had our answer and moved to Florida. While there, my husband was able to find a bunch of relatives on his dad’s side and they gave us a bunch of genealogy that my husband had never been able to find. On the other hand my husband had a bad experience with the Priesthood where he felt the spirit tell him to bless this sister in the ward that she would get well and live a long life on this earth still right in front of her non-member relatives in the hospital. Instead she got sicker and died within a few days. It totally shook up my husband and added to him leaving the church. So, I do not understand why somethings seem to work and others don’t for each of us. Bridget

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Hi Heber, I too like the idea of following Christ as the best way to lasting happiness. One of the things that impresses me the most about Christ is that he taught to follow the spirit of the law verses the letter of the law. When the Pharises asked him “What is the greatest commandment” we know what he said. “To love God and your neighbor.” “And by this hang all the laws and the prophets” This is the only absolute law. So, I do not have to remember a 1000 commandments and rules like the early Jews did. I just have to ask myself “Is this a loving thing to do.” So, even though ‘going to church on Sunday’ may be a commandment to keeping the Sabbath Day holy.” The higher law of love kicked in for me one Sunday, when my oldest son was very depressed and needed me to talk to him that morning instead.

This is why I love “Dallin Oaks’ talk on “Special Cases”, which I think I posted once on this group somewhere. Bridget

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I used to wonder alot about FAITH. Like why does God require us to have faith? I don’t like not being sure of things. Why doesn’t God just come with a flaming chariot across the sky and say in a loud voice, “And now a word from your creator!” Well, a very wise man in my ward gave me an explanation that finally made sense. He said, “If we knew for sure there was a hereafter and a big reward or big punishment, we might be good for the reward or good because of fear of punishment. Not knowing for sure, God can see what is in our hearts. Do we want to be good just for goodness sake? The older I get, the less I feel I know, but I have decided to live my life by the type of person and world I want to be. I pick up garbage in the street because I like a clean neighborhood. I visit teach my sisters because I want a ward and world where people care about each other.

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Thanks for your nice comment Heber… I also want to apologize to the moderators and group for the anti-Mormon link (which I am glad was removed then). I simply forgot that this is not allowed here and do want to respect the rules of this group. Thanks for that other link Jolly. I will look it through. Bridget

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I appreciate everyones comments. I enjoy the perspectives I get here.

My husband and I were reading through the wording of the changes made (see the link): [Moderator: We have no problem with people perusing sites they want to read, but links to explicitly anti-Mormon sites are not welcome here.] (although this is an anti-Mormon site) it seems to show the exact changes. Nevertheless, I will order the manual and read it myself. From what my husband and I read so far, nothing really botherd us. My husband has left the church but not because he did not love the church or want it to be true–he does. He just never got a witness that the BofM promised and so after 30 years of no personal affirmation that the church is true, he believes its just a nice man-made organization. He has no problem with me being active and does come to activities in the ward. He is always willing to discuss the church with me too, and is never hostile towards the church which I feel is a blessing.

Some of the points my husband and I discussed so far are:

1. Because little is known about “Heavenly Mother’, we can understand the chruch not wanting to have people delve into the mysteryies which the church has no revelation on. Nevertheless, I do understand why feminists and females might want to know more about their Heavenly Mother. It reminds me of a cartoon I saw in Sunstone Magazine where a young girl is kneeling by her bed praying and says, “Heavenly Father…I hope you don’t mind…can I PLEASE talk to Mom?” Since God is withholding that info for now, I have to trust that He has good reasons. The main focus seems to be away from our Heavenly Parents and to focus on becoming like Heavenly Father.

2. I was disturbed at first about taking out the part where it used to say that we should have a personal relationship with Christ. Now it says we should study and get to know Him and follow Him. So, I see this, not as saying we shouldn’t have a personal relationship with Christ, but more as saying that you only need to accept Christ and following Him in as requirements for salvation.

3. Apparently, it eliminated the saying that Jesus Christ is our oldest brother or that Jesus was the first born or that Satan and Jesus were brothers. It also eliminates that Eve was given to Adam, denoting that women are not given to men as possessions, which I think is good.

4. In the chapter on the Holy Ghost it eliminates that the holy ghost is a spirit in the likeness of a man.

5. On the chapter on prophets it eliminates the point that God will stop other men besides the prophet to lead men astray. It also elimantes the story of Lorenzo Snow promising there will be rain if people paid their tithing.

6. On the church today it changes that the church was completed during the next several years to would develop as the Church continued to grow.

7. On exhaltation it eliminates the line that we will be assigned to the place for which we had earned for our eternal home and just says we will be assigned to the place for which we prepared. Getting away from the idea of earning things. It also deletes the part that it is necessary to obey all the commandments and be perfect to be exhalted. It talks about 3 kingdoms now instead of 3 degrees. It also eliminates the word ‘Gods’ but just says we can become like our Heavenly Father. It eliminates the line about blessings will be given to those who earn exaltation. It eliminates the phrase that specific ordiances must be recieved to be exhalted and says instead that faith in Jesus Christ, enduring to the end, repentance and obey the commandments are necessary to be exhalted. It eliminates that we will become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father and says instead we live with Heavenly Father in eternal families. It says that if we are exalted we will be united eternally with our righteous family members and be able to have spirit children also. But these spirit childre will not have the same relationship to us as we do to our Heavenly Father. Denoting we will not be a God but our spirit children will have eternal increase.

8. It eliminates naming a bunch of commandments and says we now must only be married for eternity not time. It gets away from asking questions about the necessity of obiedence and necessary ordiances in order to become exhalted. Instead it asks how do ordiances and covenants prepare us for exaltation and how does faith in Christ help us obey the commdments. It eliminates the line that this is the way our Heavenly Father become a God, but leaves in the line that JS taught that the first principle of the Gospel is to know for a certainty the Character fo God …that he was a man like us…God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus did.

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I have a dear friend in Denmark whom I helped bring to the church 4 years ago. Some of his pre-baptism questions had to do with honoring your father and mother and doing sealings (temple work for them) because they were dead. This was very disturbing to him, as was the idea of families are forever. This is because both his father and mother severely beat and sexually abused him and his two sisers during most of their childhood. At 11, he was finally put into foster care and has had to go through 900 hours of therapy and meds to survive. He is 40 now and he did eventually become a medical doctor but still suffers post tramatic stress from all the beatings and sexual abuse from both parents. He absolutely hates and fears his parents to this day. His sisters are so screwed up too from all the abuse and he was terrified to think that he had to do temple work for them.

I showed him a quote from Brigham Young that was in the gospel essentials manual when I taught the investigators class then. It said in essence, ‘You think your families are yours just because you are sealed to them? No, you must earn your families by how you treat them on this earth…’something to that effect. That makes much for sense to me. It is very hard for some to sing that song about “Families Can be forever’ with the words, “I have a family here on earth, they are so good to me…” I am thankful for the atonement and for the justice and mercy it supplies. Bridget

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My daughter and her family belong to Pastor Haggi’s Cornerstone church in San Antonio Texas. He is often on TV. When I visit her, I attend her church. It also has a great choir, band, friendly out going people, full of enthusiasm and dynamic speakers whom I often agree with. My grandsons love the church and they have a wonderful youth group. They have Bible classes during the week and it has made my daughter and family much better people. Sometimes, I have wished our ward congregations would sing with more heart and soul as I saw there. I think people do worship in different ways and we do it more quietly. When I have read some of lds church history, there was alot more of this kind of demonstrative display in the church, especially after a baptism. I had also been active for two years in the 7th Day Adventist church 15 years ago and I did see the light of Christ there very powerfully. I think this is the key…People who truly accept Jesus in to their lives and want to serve Him, show it by how they live their lives. It is easy to take the sacrament and certain ordiances and talks for granted. We do not have a paid ministry and professionals as some of these churches do, but we are all given opportunities to grow. I think the church is trying to put more emphasis on Christ lately because he is the key to our salvation. Then there are those who are tv just to rake in the money and con people. It’s life. Bridget

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I like Elder Holland too. I love a man who can cry when appropriate. He was the one in California who had to face the media when a gay lds RM killed himself on the door steps of the stake house while he was visiting there. I heard the parents of this young speak about Elder Holland after this happened. He is a very caring man. Here is the book about this: http://deseretbook.com/item/4772927/In_Quiet_Desperation_Understanding_the_Challenge_of_Same_Gender_Attraction

Bridget

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Did any of you see the special Oprah had earlier this year where she interviewed the polygamous wives and children in Texas? It was quite interesting. It seemed obvious to me that there was jealousy between the wives and they admitted to it but just talked about the need to overcome selfishness. Everything was arranged to make a good impression for the show. I wish Oprah had asked the wives the following question: “You say you believe in the bible and scripture which says that the purpose of life is to become like God (which they said was the purpose).” Well, if God says He is a jealous God and shall have no other gods before him then ‘jealousy is a god like attribute and so there should only be one wife and one husband.

I went to Nauvoo last week for the pagent and saw these statues of JS and Emma in various places. My first thought was, “Where’s the statues of his other wives? Aren’t they important? Especially since Emma ended up leaving the church and starting a break off church. I remember when I was in the LTM trying to learn the discussions in German. One evening the LTM’s mission president’s wife spoke to us sister missionaries at our living quarters while we were in our pj’s. She told us how she and her husband met. She was a sister missionary in S. America and her husband was the LTM mission president at the time with his first wife. The first wife died and after this sister missionary returned from her mission, she and the mission president dated and fell deeply in Love even though she was much younger than him. She was preparing everything for her 1st wedding and was so excited when one of the 12 apostles at the time who was related to this mission president told her to stop making such a fuss over her wedding as she was only going to be a 2nd wife. Well, she made it real clear to us sister missionaries that evening that general authorities have their biases and weaknesses and to stand up for ourselves in the mission field if we saw something was wrong that a priesthood leader was doing. She said she had a testimony of the gospel and if a GA said, “thus saith the Lord’ he may be inspired but they are just human like the rest of us otherwise. I loved this woman and will never forget this.

History is a difficult thing because we weren’t there and do not know all the details. People have mis-judged me plenty with just bits and pieces of information about my past. So, generally I put alot of stuff on the back burner. My brother married a woman who was sealed to her first husband who died after 14 year of marriage with no kids. My brother and this woman had one son together and have been married 30 years now. Both husbands love her and want her for eternity and she wants both of them. I see nothing wrong with this if all agree. I love my husband and we are sealed together but he has hardly ever wanted sex and my therapist thinks he may be gay. I would be thrilled to have a second husband the past 20 years and I think my husband would be fine with that. So life is not so black and white and very complicated.

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Thank you Jolly. It is good to get feedback. Bridget

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Valoel,

What a great post you made. One of the few things that I have actually gotten a testimony of in the church is the answer to “What is the Purpose of Life?” Bear with me here and you will see how this relates to this topic.

When I was miserable being a missionary in Austria at 21, I began asking myself some questions. I asked myself why did God make me so dumb in this one area and my companion so smart in that area. I wanted to know the ‘why’s of everything even as a small child. Then I was reading in the Pearl of Great Price about intelligences and how God did not create our intellligences but clothed them in spiritual bodies. How intelligences have always existed and are eternal. I read how there were 2 intelligences and one was more intelligent than another and that God was more intelligent than them all. This was a big ‘aha’ moment for me to realize that God did not make me just as I am. It brought to mind the thing you learn in chemistry about matter; how it cannot be created or distroyed, just changed into something else-like water into ice. This was very important to me as I could no longer blame God for how he made me. I suddenly became responsible for how I turned out. If God had made us just the way we are then we could blame him for how we turned out. As lds, we also seem to adopt this evangelical idea that God made us just as we are. I now understand that I was always a thinking intelligence out there in the Universe and that we decided we wanted to become like God and He was willing to make that possible for us. Knowing that, helped me understand the signifigance of the JS story. JS seeing that God had a body and was a perfected being was a huge surprise for him because in his day it was thought that God was a spirit without body, parts, or passions. When the Bible says God created man in His own Image, I began to understand that He clothed our intelligences in Spirit bodies to look like Him so we could become like Him. This made sense to me, because I knew that a child can become like his parents. Anyway, then I realized if the purpose of life was to become like our Heavenly Father then everything we are asked to do by God would be to help us achieve that goal which would ultimately give us a ‘fulness of joy.’ Now, I looked at everything differently. What is the purpose of reading the scriptures? It would be to read God’s list of how to become like Him. What would be the purpose of Christ establishing His church? To give us opportunities to become like Him. So, callings are our opportunities to develop Christlike attributes. Therefore, I sometimes I have to endure a poor lesson or talk so that person will have the opportunity to grow. Only when I understand the purpose of life, did many things start making sense to me. The 3 fold purpose of the church is to perfect the saints, redeem the dead, etc. Even though I often mess up and am not very motivated at times, I understand the atonement covers that so I can still reach my ulitmate goal someday. Treating my body as a temple, learning to love the unlovable, even my enemies, is all part of the plan. Without this gospel understanding, I would think going to church and listening to some boring old high counselman every second Sunday would be a waste of my time.

Bridget

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Hi Poppyseed, I have really enjoyed actually reading some of your posts and are the type of person I would love to meet and have lunch with. I have had so many reasons to leave the church so many times, but don’t because it was based on peoples bad behavior or hang-ups. If I ever leave the church, it would because God would tell me to leave (and he did once for two years-read my intro). Something that helped me with this issue was a thought by Brigham Young. So, I will share it here:

Personal Responsibility

By Brigham Young

In the early history of the Church, many converts who joined with the body of the Saints expected to find a spiritual utopia. Frustrated at finding that the communities of the Saints were populated with people, who in many instances were no better than themselves, some of these immigrants voiced their disillusionment and left the Church. These people had anticipated a Zion in which they could bask in spiritual light day and night. Longing to be nurtured by revelations, miracles, and manifestations of divine power, they sought heaven on earth. They did not realize that spiritual maturity often comes slowly and that many, like themselves, find the courage and strength necessary to overcome their own weaknesses. Of such people, Brigham Young would inquire, “What hinders you from enjoying all that you anticipated?” If you are not as you desire to be, if you do not feel the prompting or influence of the Holy Ghost to the extent that you think you should, where is the fault to be found? Responding to his own question, President Young explained that it was a mistake to suppose that others could prevent you from enjoying the light of God in your soul. “All hell,” he said, “cannot hinder me from enjoying Zion in my own heart, if my individual will yields obedience to the requirements and mandates of my Heavenly Master “ (JD 1:311). Brigham Young declared himself to be the only man in heaven, on earth, or in hell responsible for Brigham Young. Further he held that the same doctrine applied equally to every Latter-day Saint. Salvation is an individual matter. “I am the only person that can accept Christ and save myself,” said Brigham. We cannot pin our faith on someone else’s sleeve. No one can accept or reject salvation in behalf of another. It is not the object or design of the gospel to create spiritual dependence. Of those who constantly suspend their own judgment to lean upon others they suppose to have greater wisdom than themselves, President Young said that they ‘will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming gods.” They cannot rule themselves, let alone give direction to others. Spiritually, he likened them to children who need direction in every trifle. “They cannot control themselves in th least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They can never become gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives.” Who will?” asked President Young, “those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heave, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course.” Ibid, p.312) (taken from SEEKING THE SPIRIT by Joseph Fielding McConkie)

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Spacious Maze,

Your questions are very sincere and good. I appreciate the anquish you are going through right now, as I have been there. Perhaps, a very special experience that happened to me some years ago may help you. Here it is:

Even though I was raised in the church by convert parents, had a strong testimony, and went on a mission to Austria, I too have struggled with my testimony at times. Even with my belief in God. I did not marry until I was 25 and I know the pressure there is to get married and have kids in the church. There have been several times that I felt like a misfit in the church and did not belong. My husband, raised as an atheist, and a scientist, had a hard time with faith and religion. He went to Catholic Parochial school as a child but that turned him off to religion. The Mormon faith was the first religion that made any sense to him and he joined on an intellectual testimony hoping the spiritual one would come. When it didn’t, he left the church and I found myself crying my eyes out in a fast and testimony meeting one Sunday. I was begging the Lord to tell me why he had not given a good man like my husband a spiritual witness.

Something very unexpectedly happened then. A clear thought came through my head that said, “Why don’t you go visit that 7th Day Adventist church around the corner?” I thought, “We’re did that come from” and then the thought came to me two more times. I told my husband about it and we decided to follow that prompting. I met with the pastor of that church several times and the things he gave to read answered some important questions I had. You see I had been doing all the right things in the church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, etc. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then I came across some anti-Mormon stuff from the Tanners that quoted out of church history and Journal of Discourses. For the first time I thought that the church might be false.

This pastor handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins not their problems they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. I knew immediately that the only thing I should be concerned about is being saved from my sins and that is why Jesus died for me. When my husband joined the church the missionaries assumed he had the milk of the gospel (faith in Jesus Christ) but he didn’t. Sometimes in the lds church we concentrate so much on the meat we neglect the milk of the gospel. Other churches mostly have the milk so it is often highly concentrated there. We left the church for two years and investigated the 7th Day church, but one day as they were teaching us a class on the signs of a true prophet, my husband and I looked at each other and knew they were talking about Joseph Smith. Then two books called the “Gainsayers” and “Are Mormons Christian” came into my hands and answered my many questions. Plus we met every week for a year with a man in our old ward who had a Masters degree in Church history. I had never prayed so hard to know if the church was true or not. I cried and cried for a while thinking I had been betrayed by the church like a woman who had found out her husband had cheated on her. We finally came back to the church and had a much stronger testimony, but during that time I asked the Lord about the 7th Day Adventist church and Ellen G. White and other churches (my daughter had joined the Baptist church and my daughter in law was Lutheran). The Lord spoke to me and said the following: “Although the lds church has the fullness of the gospel, I work through all the churches and they are all my people. That other churches are like stepping stones to the full truth. Not everyone can handle the fullness right away. You cannot take a junk food junkie and make them a health food nut overnight. Line upon line. So, at times God leads people to good Christian churches that may prepare them for the fullness eventually.

Remember that when Jesus told Joseph Smith that the other churches had teachings that were an abomination in His eyes, he never said the people or the churches were an abomination just the teachings. Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc, were all reformers and stepping stones towards the truth. I personally prefer to tell people we have the fullness of the gospel instead of saying the ONLY TRUE CHURCH, implying how false they are. My dad was such a wonderful convert to this church. He would meet a Baptist or Lutheran and tell them how wonderful it was that they were Christians and all the things he loved about their faith. Then he would say, “If you can show me that your church has more to offer than mine, I will gladly join your church,” and then a wonderful discussion would pursue.

My dad joined the Mormon church in Germany when he was 25 trying to show his best friend how false this church was. The first time he stepped into a Mormon church he had prayed for God to let him know what kind of a church this was. Shortly after he stepped into the church he noticed his wallet had been stolen. He thought, “Ok, here’s my answer, they are a den of thieves.” As he was leaving he decided to stop and listen to the branch president that was talking at the time. He said, “If you have come to this church to find perfect people, you will be greatly disappointed, but if you want to know if the teachings are true, you will find the truth. Just like with Joseph Smith, Satan arrived first, then God.

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I am the only active member of the church in my immeadiate family right now. I take the good I can and leave the rest. But, I have done some real good in changes in my ward and stake in regards to loving and understanding homosexuals because of my gay son. It has made a big difference and changed how people treated gays in our area. So, I am happy for that.

Bridget

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