Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I just emailed this to this bishop because I hope it would help him be a better bishop to any gays in his ward or stake: Bishop [last name removed],
Because, we have a gay son, I have a huge heart for how gay people are being treated. I just want to make you aware that there is a good website the lds church has created to help leaders and members know how to treat those that are different.
http://mormonsandgays.org/ Every ward and stake has at least 10% of gays in their congregations who are mostly in the closet. What they hear about gays and homosexuality in the church can greatly affect them. 40% of gay youth in the church have been kicked out of their homes and often commit suicide. When our youngest child discovered at 16 that he had a same sex attraction, he was terrified. A teacher in his Sunday school class at this time told the class that gays were an abomination and that there were no gays in the lds church and that gays were going to hell. It was a horrible, self loathing time for him which made him suicidal. He was the most precious, loving child growing up and did not choose to have these feelings. He tried everything to change and felt like God had abandoned him which is why he left the lds church and lost his faith in God. I wrote a book about our unusual story under a pen name to protect our family. You can read a preview to it at my signature link “Prayers for Johnathan”:I am always glad to hear when churches make changes and progress in this and other areas. Here, for example, are changes the lds church has made on the issue of homosexuality over the years:
Changes in the lds church On Homosexuality:
a.) A 1974 church pamphlet excoriated homosexuality as evil and castigated parents of gays for having raised their children poorly.
b.) By 1992, a new teaching suggested that biological factors could be at work.
New church publication, “God Loveth His Children,” says gay feelings are neither learned nor chosen, and it counsels against rejecting a gay child. It repeatedly warns against feelings of guilt: “Attractions alone do not make you unworthy.
c.) It has also abandoned its history of encouraging gay members to enter heterosexual marriages. The new document says “the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provision for individuals who seek to keep His commandments but who, through no fault of their own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life.”
d.)Spencer W. Kimball’s book, The Miracle of Forgiveness. It had a chapter in it called I think, “Crime Against Nature”, and it described in very certain terms the evilness and sinfulness this condition. He used awful words to describe homosexuals and their feelings. He stated that these desires were pungent, evil, disgusting, vial, malicious, and pernicious. I remember reading his book and cried as I read what was said about my son who has always been one of the most angelic young men I have ever known. He never choose those feelings and almost committed suicide trying to change them.
Sincerely, Bridget
Roy wrote:bridget_night wrote:Well, I got an email back from this bishop. He basically said he was sorry that I had been hurt by people in the church, but that the church was true and all my questions and doubts have answers and to come back to church.
It sounds like he is a good guy that is also very entrenched in a traditional paradigm. I bet you $1 that he cannot fathom the idea of God leading you to the United Church of Christ.
Roy, I had to smile when you said that because at least I knew he could not argue with what God told me for my situation since we are told that we can recieve personal revelation for our own situations. I had also told this bishop about the time I was in a fast and testimony crying and praying about why God had not given my husband a witness of the book of Mormon. I heard a voice in my head to go visit the 7th Day adventist church around the corner 3 times. We did and the pastor there helped me understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the atonement better than ever before. I guess it is hard for some members to really understand how God would tell someone anything different than what the church teachesSilentDawning wrote:That is a good, frank letter. I feel his initial email shows he’s a caring person, but is relying on traditional Mormon answers and approaches, which tend not to work with people like us.
One concern I have is that the new CHI indicates that local leaders can take away people’s membership if they join a different church. So, I personally would not have shared your involvement in a different church (you stopped short of saying you are a member of the other church, which is good; I think you said your husband mentioned it too). However, that is for each person to decide. I tend to be overly cautious and don’t give the priesthood leaders’ much to go on. I like what Roy said — be polite (as you were) and give them vague hope of change. Which in my case, exists. For someone still connected at the hip by family, it’s a good strategy — you may perceive your situation as different.
Thanks for sharing this. It’s always a big deal when a priesthood leader comes to your home. And its stressful too.
I know what you mean about mentioning another church. I would not have originally but my husband did and the bishop did ask what we found there that we did not find in the lds church. Also that we have not taken our names off the church records. My husband also mentioned that one of the only reasons he would do that is so home teachers and leaders would not have one more family as dead weight to have to visit as he knows it just adds to the already over worked members.
Well, I got an email back from this bishop. He basically said he was sorry that I had been hurt by people in the church, but that the church was true and all my questions and doubts have answers and to come back to church. Here is what I wrote him back: Hi Bishop Hellums,
The fact that you took the time to read my long letter etc. and took some thought in replying back, makes me respect you and believe you are a very caring person. I thank you for that. Your visit and email has made me realize that I still have anger issues about the lds church that I thought I had resolved. It is good for me to look at those issues again and process them, as I do not think it is healthy to live with resentments or anger. It was not really people in the lds church that made the final decision for us to leave the church. We know people are imperfect and mess up. For us, it had to do with whether the lds church doctrine, scriptures, and teachings were from God and whether Joseph Smith was a prophet. We did not take that lightly. Even after reading the things that were disturbing to us in church history volumes and Journal of Discourses, we spent a whole year, every week-end, meeting with a lds man who had a masters degree in lds church history to go over the points that bothered us. In the final analysis, everything comes down to personal revelations for us. We have to go by what God revealed to us personally and the direction He has shown us that He wants us to go. This is why we are involved in the United Church of Christ at this time; we know God led us there. Should God reveal to us to come back to the lds church someday, we would. We cannot go by what others, a bishop, or top leaders say. We have to get our own revelation and verification as early lds church leaders have admonished. Here is one example:
“What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blink self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 150
Thank you again for writing back and may God bless you in your calling,
Is there information out there of how many early church leaders questioned/doubted and then left the church? Have there ever been GA’s or top lds leaders in history or modern times who have struggled with their testimonies or doubted and questioned? Well, my husband really liked the spirit of the man and I think you are right jedi that he just is trying to show love. Being in real estate and the army you have to learn a little about how to deal with people. It would be nice to have a bishop who has actually struggled with doubt about the church and could understand that struggle. Have never met one of those yet. Thanks for everyone’s comments and I agree that he seems like a good man. Don’t necessarily like someone knocking at my door without calling first as we have so many scam sales people and crimminals at times, but I am sure we would not have let him come if he had called first. I did not even want to invite him in but my husband did. Before I emailed him, I did do a google search about him and found his email address. Here is what it said about him: I am a licensed and experienced realtor serving the cities of Daytona Beach, Port Orange, New Smyrna Beach, Ormond Beach, Ponce Inlet, and many other exciting areas. (He just retired in June of 2014) which is good for him being a bishop and for his family.)
I understand the importance of family, and the desire to provide the very best for your family. I became a Real Estate Agent because I enjoy helping people. I believe home ownership should be more than just a dream; it should be a reality. Finding that perfect place, so your family can make it a HOME, is my # 1 priority.
I graduated Magna Cum Laude from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach. I served in the United States Army and have had a great career in the Federal Government as an Air Traffic Controller. I married my best friend right out of high school. She is now a Retired Elementary School Teacher from the Volusia County School System. We have four children; Chris, Lori, Shaun and Lisa. Chris is an officer in the United States Army; he flies Apache Helicopters and has served in Iraq and Afghanistan. He is married and has four children. Lori married a real Cowboy from Utah, and they also have four children. Shaun served a two-year mission for our church, attended BYU, & works for Disney. Lisa’s Husband is also an officer in the United States Army.
Thanks Roy….One of the difficult things for me to realize was how falliable the prophet and leaders of the church can be. As I read things early leaders had said and done that most of us would get excommunicated for today, I was shocked. From this article, it sounds like the GA’s and prophet are exempt from criticism or being called out. [Hyperbolic comparison deleted] I do understand minor criticisms and nit picking, but if I see a leader breaking the law or doing something really wrong (like priests in the catholic church did to kids) I will speak out. I hate cover ups, just to protect the good name of the church. I was never afraid to study, research, and learn about the church because I believed it had nothing to hide and was God’s one true church. I have no problem even with learning that my leaders had weaknesses or grievous sins but not to get a pass for them or do a cover up. So often I felt muzzled or rejected for asking questions at church. People knew I loved the church and had a strong testimony when I taught Gospel Doctrine 4 years, and Investigator class 4 years and in RS 8 years besides serve a mission. People loved coming to my classes because I would relate the gospel to their real lives with humor and compassion. Suddenly, I was told I could no longer use any outside sources to teach my lessons (only the 4 standard works and the Ensign). When I told them that GA’s quote Billy Graham and Mother Theresa and use outside resourses all the time, I was told that they are special and can do that. I asked them about the 13th article of faith which says that anything that is of good report or newsworthy, etc we should seek after and again I was just commanded to obey the new rule by the stake president. Well, I stepped down then because I felt I could no longer be myself and teach lessons by the spirit. It just pains me still at times that this is not the church I was brought up in.
I was taught to believe: John 14:6New King James Version (NKJV) 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
This said, I was also taught in the lds church that people of all faiths can recieve salvation through Christ, but exhaltation to the highest degree in the celestial kingdom only comes through temple ordiances (and living righteously to the best of your ability and the atonement takes care of the rest.) In the lds church I was taught that the goal was to become like God and eternal life is to know Him.
When I was on my mission, I met some investigators who believed in reincarnation. They told me that they too believed that the goal was to become like God and that you would be reincarnated as many times as necessary until you achieve godhood. This meant that accepting Jesus Christ was not necessary, nor His atonement for man. It actually reminded me of the plan Lucifer presented in the pre-existance; that he would make sure all would be saved by taking away man’s free-agency. Non-Christian religions show other paths to their gods.
I have no perfect knowledge which path is absolutely correct, but I do know where my hope lies: 1 Peter 3:15 “But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect”. I hope and try to follow Christ and hope that it will lead me to becoming like God. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I was reading a discussion between Billy Graham and Robert Schuller not too long ago. Schuller was asking Graham about the future of Chrisitianity. Graham said that he had met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations who have never seen a Bible or heard about Jesus, but they believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they tried to live a life quite apart from the surrounding coummunity in which they lived. He also said that he believed that God was calling people out of the world to do His work, whether they come from the Muslim or Buddist or Christian or nonbelieving world. That God considers them members of the body of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have and they turn to the only light that they have and I think they are saved and going to be in heaven with us. Schuller then says: What I hear you saying is that it’s possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and souls and lives, even if they ‘ve been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible.
This reinforces in me that people want to believe in a just and merciful God who wants to save all His children, no matter what path they are on right now. That is how any earthly good parent would be.
Alot of food for thought. Ray, I thought about what you said in regards to my sister and telling my brother about the coffee. I realized there must have been an underlying resentment towards my sister and brother here. This brother has always bossed me around since I was a little girl. When he became an adult and high councilman it got worse. He never seemed to pick on my sister, just me. So subconsciously maybe, I wanted my sister to feel what it was like to get reprimaded from big brother and also for my brother to see little sister was not so perfect either just cause she is still in the church. Lack of maturity on my part and I have deeply regretted it. I almost laughed at that statement the lds spokewoman made when she said: ” “Isn’t that the beauty in all this” because it reminded me of the Nicene creed that describes God as a being without body, parts, or passion; big enough to dwell in your heart but fill the whole world. Nicest describtion of ‘Nothing” I have ever heard. If you make it vaque, but poetic, it makes it more beautiful but not more understandable. As far as her saying we can ask questions in RS and SS in regards to OW, LGBT, polgyamy, and church history; not without it bringing judgment down on you. I taught GD and investigators class for 4 years each. I would ask questions like, “How would you treat gay couples that visited the church or if polygamy were reinstated, etc. I got reprimanded and finally realeased from my callings for that. When I brought up difficult questions in RS or SS I was asked by the teacher, “Why did you even ever join this church.” As far as local leaders not being influenced by church headquarters or leaders accept for a few innocent guidlines; that is bull. I remember when I was the PR person in my ward in Iowa years ago. I was supposed to bring information from ward members who had accomplished good things in the community so the stake could put them into local newspapers to show what good things Mormons are doing in the community. I told them how I had started a parents and friends group to show and love and support for gay people in our community. The stake PR person told me that he would have to get an OK from Salt Lake to allow them to put my community service in the newspaper. After a week I was told that Salt Lake would not approve my request at this time. So, if my small article of community service had to be approved, I am sure bigger fish than mine do too. By the way, other churches in the Quad-cities supported me 100% accept the lds church did not. Individuals in the lds church wrote me privately that they supported me and were sorry my news report was not accepted by church headquarters.
Btw, Meridian Magazine just posted this about Kate and John:
http://www.ldsmag.com/article/1/14497 Here are my thoughts on that article:I listened to a radio cast recently with John and Kate and John said that even though he does not believe in Section 132 of the D& C or the authenticity of the BofM or Book of Abraham, and a few other things I cannot recall now, I have never heard him say that he doesn’t believe in God, the historical Jesus and rejects all doctrine of the church. John mentions that members in the Catholic church can disagree with the Pope on abortion or birth control and still be members in good standing and he sees himself in the same way in the lds church. It is my understanding that Br. Oaks or some other GA has said that you should never criticise church leaders, even if they are wrong. Is that correct? That sounds so wrong if that is true. Jesus taught if you have something against someone, to do it privately with the person first. If a bishop or leader like Joseph Smith was doing something wrong (like I believe JS did with polygamy and lying to Emma) then I can understand why William Law went to the press finally after JS propositioned his wife. But, I am glad there is discussion about all this going on. The main thing is to try and understand each other and speak with respect.
I really appreciate this thread and what you all have shared. I love how God works with us where we are at, with such individuality, and ways we can understand. Here are just a few of mine: When my husband had his first crisis of faith, I was in a Fast and Testimony meeting crying and begging God to tell me why my husband never got his witness of the BofM. I heard a voice in my head say 3 times, “Why don’t you go visit that 7th Day Adventist church around the corner.” We did for two years and gleamed alot from that pastor and church. Then the Spirit brought us back to the lds church again for some time. When we moved to Florida from Iowa 5 years ago, the spirit led us to a Nazerene church and we gleamed alot there. A year and a half ago the Spirit led us to the United Church of Christ in Port Orange FLorida. If he ever told us to come back to the lds church, we would, but we have learned that God takes you where you can grow the best at different stages in your life.
I find that God works in so many different ways to reach us. Like with my husband, the spirit gave him an answer to prayer through playing a metal puzzle that was shaped like a heart. He got the answer to his question about how to deal with his co-workers who were difficult. That you reach them through their hearts/feelings about themselves, not logic. Through our gay son, the Spirit worked through chess games, and utube video’s of peoples out of body experiences. When my husband was about to harshly reprimand our gay son as a teen, the Holy Spirit stopped him in his tracks and loudly, put the thought, “It’s Necessary” in his mind and all the anger left him. He calmly told my son that the Spirit had just stopped him from reprimanding him and told him that what ever he is going through is necessary for his growth and to not be upset at him for that.
I remember telling a TBM about a powerful spiritual experience I had that went against the church teachings at the time. He looked at me and said, “God would NEVER tell you that.” I knew it was from God though because I had soo much peace and calmness in my heart afterwards. It made me not give up my church calling as GD teacher at the time. I told the guy, I bet Abraham’s wife and church members would have told Abraham the same thing you just told me if he had come out to tell them God told me to kill my only son Isacc. Only we can know if it was God’s word to us.
