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DevilsAdvocate: thank you for your response to my comment. You raise questions that I think are common and important – enough so that I want to try and respond with my perspective. I’ll try to just do it in one post and leave it at that so I don’t steer the whole thread off-topic. I’m just speaking from my experience here – I don’t expect everyone to have the same experience. For clarity, when I use the term porn, I am talking about hard-core porn (primarily videographic).

The way you state your views, it sounds like you are saying there are lots of people who use porn and don’t experience any problems. In fact, the only time problems arise it is because women don’t understand men, have a “porno-phobia”, overreact to it, and cause undue turmoil. Educating or disillusioning women about the realities of male sexuality is the solution. While I agree there are people who use porn and don’t experience any problems, and education is definitely needed, I don’t entirely share your view on the second assertion (but in some part I do, which I will get to in a second). Here are my thoughts:

– In my understanding of the article I linked before, the therapist is not only talking about how porn affects wives, she is also saying it sometimes causes negative effects and experiences for men she is counseling. I’ve read men’s self-reports of these effects in other places too. A sense of loss of control, the unwanted intrusion of porn thoughts into their normal life, a reduction of interest or arousal in normal real-life interactions, or a need for sex to mimic porn to be arousing. In the article she also lists problems like “losing interest in their partner, experiencing a compulsive need for sex, and getting into risky and hurtful sexual practices.” This is worrisome and troubling to them, independent of their partners’ reaction to porn use, and in one study I read, these effects were also reported by single men. Because in early therapy models, porn was assumed to be entirely harmless, the therapist in the article said these effects took her by surprise. “Increasing numbers of clients report that porn has become ‘the great spoiler’ for them sexually by spawning unhealthy interests and reducing their natural responsiveness. One man confided that he could no longer [get turned on] with a real partner. ‘I want to go back to how it used to be before I was into porn—when just being near a woman I cared about turned me on. How can I get my old sexuality back?’ he asked. Another told me he’d probably remain single all his life: ‘I’ve lost all interest in dating. Porn is easier and more convenient than dealing with actual people. And even if I met a nice woman, I doubt she’d really want me, given how twisted my sexual desires have become’.” These effects are not universally experienced, of course, but the point is I don’t believe they are caused by women’s expectations.

– I don’t believe just knowing that her husband has seen something pornographic is the primary reason for the woman’s intense negative reaction in the article I linked. In my experience, it is when the man develops a growing relationship with porn, and it changes him and his behaviors and expectations, and alters the way he relates to his wife that she experiences such deep hurt and agony and feelings of betrayal, abandonment, rejection, or inadequacy. Men don’t always perceive the change in themselves, but their wives often do. From http://lifestarstgeorge.com/blog/?p=233” class=”bbcode_url”>http://lifestarstgeorge.com/blog/?p=233: “Even before she found out he was into porn, it felt to her like something had changed. He seemed distracted and calloused, less empathic and patient, easily irritated, emotionally detached.” This parallels my experience. It feels as though he has an intimate relationship with someone else which is channeling his love and interest away. And from my observation, some men start asking for behaviors in the bedroom they hadn’t before, or react sexually in ways that feel demeaning or objectifying to their partners. If porn use genuinely didn’t affect these men at all, they could successfully hide it from their spouses if they wanted to, but in my experience it sometimes alters a man’s thoughts and behavior toward women in ways his wife senses despite his secrecy, and this change in him can be quite devastating. Again, this is not a universal thing, but I have encountered it enough to believe it is a legitimate problem for some. And again, I don’t believe it is rooted in women’s expectations.

– Because it is so available, and because parents often only cover the rudimentary basics in sex education, porn has become a primary source many young people turn to when learning about sex, which extends into adulthood and marriage. I view it as a huge problem that we don’t have enough sources to go to for direct, comprehensive, realistic, balanced, healthy, clear information and answers about sex, and that we don’t make available enough quality education to help both men and women develop sexually satisfying relationships. In my view we also don’t celebrate the beauty and power of the committed sexual bond enough through appropriate artistic and educational avenues. People looking to learn about sex sometimes find available sources inadequate or unclear, then turn to porn, and too often come away with a distorted sense of what real life sex is and should be – particularly what “should” turn women on in real life, what behaviors women should accept from men, what is appropriate for men to expect from women, and the sense that sexuality is primarily a physiological response, so we can safely disregard the relational psychology involved. From the article I originally linked: “Because of cultural shame and silence, children aren’t receiving messages informing them that there’s a difference between porn fantasies and the real world, where interpersonal dynamics matter and sex has consequences. Without these touchstones, kids may fail to realize how harmful and unfair it is to measure their own sexuality (or anyone else’s) against porn standards and how dangerous it can be to try to mimic what they see in porn.” This can lead to serious problems: “As my colleagues and I discovered in our interviews, striking numbers of young women are participating in unwanted sex—either particular acts they dislike or more frequent intercourse than they’d prefer, or mimicking porn” (from http://www.slate.com/id/2286240/pagenum/2” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.slate.com/id/2286240/pagenum/2). This is alarming to me, but I’ve read other research that bears it out: many (particularly non-religious) women in the younger generation are finding themselves unable to negotiate for their own sexual needs, because their partners’ (and sometimes their own) sexual repertoire and awareness mostly comes from what they have seen in porn, which is predominately male-centric and leaves them at least somewhat insensitive to what brings female sexual fulfillment (both in the relational components, and the sexual acts themselves). I know a married woman who feels uncomfortable with some of the ways her husband behaves in their intimate relationship – things he does and expects her to do which mirror things he has seen. She just pretends to like these behaviors, and does not expect him to take her feelings into account because he tells her “this is just how guys are.” She believes if she asked him to stop, he would no longer be interested by her sexually and it would take away what attention she does get from him in this area of their relationship. At those times, she is putting on an act in her own sex life and completely subverting her own sexual needs. I view this as tragic. In an instance like this, I might say “porn quite effectively ‘trains men to become desensitized to women’s pain'” (from: http://lifestarstgeorge.com/blog/?p=233” class=”bbcode_url”>http://lifestarstgeorge.com/blog/?p=233). I certainly realize you aren’t advocating this on any level. I’m just saying sometimes putting emphasis on teaching women to accommodate men’s nature without giving equal regard for the kind of education guys are getting can become really problematic.

– I have often encountered an attitude that women need to “just get over it”. This approach of saying relationship problems relating to porn are entirely contained in women’s expectations feels incomplete and unfair to me. Both men and women need better preparation and education. A woman has a right to set boundaries for what she feels comfortable with in her own intimate relationship, and since porn use can and often does affect her, she and her partner should able to communicate openly and respect each others’ needs here. While it is totally true to say porn is highly stimulating for most males and because of its availability it has become very common for people to view it, it is not true to say that men categorically “need” to use internet porn, unless they have built this need up for themselves. Before the internet age (which is incredibly recent – within this generation), most men had virtually no access to the kinds or quantity of material they have access to now. Porn existed, but there were big differences from past to present in what most people would be consuming, and how often. If a guy is single or feels his sexual needs are not being met for any reason, I don’t believe that means porn is necessarily the best or only universal solution.

All of the above is leading me to make the point that a woman should have the right to negotiate with her husband about her comfort level with his porn use, and vice-versa if she is a porn user (preferences will be influenced by religious values, past experience, and personal sensitivity, which will widely vary among people with different backgrounds). I do believe there are couples who don’t have a problem with it and are honest with each other about that. But because problems like those I noted above can be devastating, it is not unfair for religious institutions to urge individuals to avoid porn and thereby avoid its potential associated problems. Since this is a value they are taught, for LDS and other religious couples, presumably most of the time there will be an expectation that both partners will avoid porn use entirely. I genuinely believe a husband who cares about women in general and his wife’s well-being in particular will make it a priority to accommodate her feelings in that regard, whatever their mutual values are. NOW, ALL THAT BEING SAID. There is a flip side which I believe is also important, and which I suspect is underlying the point you are trying to make. It is something that is not emphasized nearly enough, in my opinion. It is certainly hard for some girls to do, but it is only fair. Sometimes this right to come to an agreement with her husband instead turns into an all-or-nothing kind of a feeling, something like: “if I ever find out my husband uses porn even once, then I will never trust him again or view him as a good man or believe that he loves me – it will ruin our relationship forever.” If despite their mutual expectations about it, a guy trips up and looks at porn a time or two, while it is fair for a wife to feel hurt and need him to acknowledge her pain, in my opinion it is not fair, not helpful, not compassionate to treat him as though he is loathsome and run as though irreparable damage has automatically been done. It doesn’t help to make him afraid to or unable to turn to her for support. Like you seem to be saying, occasional exposure is not necessarily enough to lead to the problems I talked about above, particularly if he can talk about it, is sensitive to his wife’s needs and feelings, and in return is met with love, understanding and support. Even if hurt, she can and hopefully will try to understand what he is dealing with in our culture where avoiding porn is not a simple thing to do – in fact, can be an almost herculean expectation – particularly at times of high stress, times he feels rejected or his self-esteem is low, times he feels like a failure, or if he has had a history of porn use. A wife who works toward understanding and having compassion and support for his efforts, and (despite how hard it genuinely is), trying not to take it personally that the temptation is real and a part of modern life will go a long way in helping him succeed in living up to their mutual expectations. While he should make genuine, concerted efforts to be honest and true to her needs and their mutual values, she should make the equally challenging efforts to support him in his quest while treating honest missteps with understanding and a measure of compassion and real support. She can certainly still be honest about things that hurt, and expect him to acknowledge that pain, but she should be equally able to hear and see and acknowledge the monumental efforts he is making for their relationship and reciprocate by not letting a misstep become the only thing that matters. All this is assuming he is actually trying to honor her needs, which I honestly believe most guys want to do and can succeed at, especially if they feel loved, supported, understood, admired, wanted, and don’t feel condemned for every temptation they face along the path. I know not everyone has the same experiences so each couple will have to figure things out for their situation, but I think almost universally, both husbands and wives benefit from real education, real understanding, compassion for each others’ needs and trials and efforts, and mutual accommodation.

That’s my (probably over-expounded) view, thanks for letting me share. You can all feel free to go back to the original intent of this thread. :thumbup:

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Thanks Ray.

I’m sorry SamBee, I guess I was focusing my comment on parts of the thread that didn’t necessarily address your original question. To put my comment back on topic, I would say the article I posted includes a therapist’s perspective on what she considers to be unhealthy porn vs. material that is sexually explicit, but which from her perspective is constructive rather than destructive. She does a good job explaining how and why she has come to see them differently. I think your question is important because when people talk about “porn” they may not be defining it the same way, which can lead to misunderstanding. As someone who has studied art I feel a very important distinction exists for me. I have encountered many instances of literature, visual art, or film that have nudity, and intense sensual or sexual content, but which I experience as uplifting, important, instructive, profound, beautiful, insightful, or meaningful on a personal level. This seems to be what you are saying too. But I am really careful about this, because as you pointed out there are so many things (particularly online) which are just meant to overwhelm the senses with extremes, distortions, intensity, or shock-value which have no other meaning and feel negative and destructive to me. Since there are lots of things between the extremes, your question is a hard one which I don’t see as having one answer. Where do we draw the line? I think it is most common in the LDS culture at large to draw a pretty conservative line because it is more clear, and less risky. That works well for a lot of people, and might make the most sense as an institution-wide solution to your question. I think I draw my line a little differently, by careful attention to how something makes me feel spiritually and emotionally, and how it affects my feelings for myself and my spouse, rather than simply avoiding anything that has nudity or sexual content. Steering clear of things that overwhelm or degrade my sensitivities is really important to me, but I feel some sexually oriented things are ok which my more conservative friends might not feel are appropriate. Not everyone has the same sensitivity – so that would mean other people would end up with a different comfort level than mine. I guess I’m saying I think you have a great question, but I don’t have a solid, singular answer. I can only share how I approach the question for myself. When I hear church leaders talk about “porn” I hear that as meaning anything that is blatant hard-core porn, or anything else that elicits negative thoughts or distracts from my relationship with my spouse, which I have to define for myself. That is what works for me – I hope that makes sense.

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I have read this thread with interest, and wanted to say thanks to everyone for sharing your honest views – I have have appreciated reading them.

I thought I would add a link that some might find useful. I see in this thread there are differing opinions about what porn is, and particularly whether all porn use is normal (for men in particular), or whether some forms of porn can have a negative effect for some people and some relationships. I understand that people have different experiences in this respect. The perspective in the article is interesting to me because it is written by a therapist who is not biased in the way some feel that LDS women generally are. This therapist isn’t LDS, and started out her career “pro-porn”, so her explanation of why she has come to view today’s hard-core porn as negative is articulated in a way that might shed some light on this perspective for those who don’t “get” others’ negative stance on porn, or don’t experience it negatively themselves. Whether you agree with her or not, it might at least help show where some of us are coming from in feeling porn can be harmful to some who consume it, or their intimate partners who feel its effects negatively.

http://www.alternet.org/sex/146957/is_porn_bad_for_you?page=1” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.alternet.org/sex/146957/is_porn_bad_for_you?page=1

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