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So Tom, You seem to have studied this enough to have a qualified opinion. How do you feel about NDE being physiological?
I recall reading somewhere the idea that these experiences were just the brain “shutting down”. What’s your take on it?
I’ve always felt that our society devalues the devine roll and calling of being a mother. The media teaches us that successful people are folks in the workplace. It tells us that stay-at-home moms are somehow “weak” or, at least not living up to their potential. The priesthood, when properly lived, is simply the power to bless others. There should be no domineering derived from it IMHO. Men can, and have, exercised unrightous dominion and used their priesthood holding as an excuse but I would submit that any man that does, doesn’t have any priesthood power anyway.
I think sometimes we men are given the priesthood because we couldn’t cut it as proper mothers so we need something to do.
I guess what I’m saying is…Only when unrightous dominion is exercised is a woman’s role in Mormonism anything less than a man’s.
My opinion only…
Spiriual answers seem to always be a paradox in that they just seem to fail simple logic tests. I guess what I’m getting at is the when I need help and set out to get it, I may or may not find what I feel I need. But…if I apply myself to helping others, the help I need seems to always be taken care of.
It is indeed a “long road back” and it’s always a different place when we arrive. Welcome Ric.
Bill, Stuggling with the “warts” of the history of the restoration is something that a lot of us go through and that shows courage on your part to confront it.
I don’t think God wants us to be a bunch of non-questioning droids. He put us here to struggle through this mess and to become stonger for doing that. You’ve found a good website, and I hope a whole lot more, to escort you on your journey.
Throw your doubts out there and I’m sure they’ll be addressed. There’s enough diversity of ideas here that you may come away with something that can really help.
May God bless you and yours.
Gosh that has got to be a tough one. I remember that age with hormones spewing out the pores. It’s a challenge, as a parent, to get any values across.
Putting myself in the young man’s shoes….I remember one young (14ish) ladie’s parents who, instead of banishing me from the premises, invited me over for dinner/board games/movies…..that seemed to be a workable compromise. I was about 15 and if they hadn’t done that….we probably would have sneaked around.
Just sayin….
I’m 53 and raising a 4-year-old grandaughter so if you figure it out…please pass it on.
Well…I’m uncomfortable with all the attention… I appreciate jerriboy’s comments and look forward to hearing more.
I should not have been so thin-skinned….senior moment no doubt (or maybe those tacos for dinner)
Re: prophecy and seership…
That has to be in the back of all our minds. Some of the most beautiful manifestations of heavenly messengers have been recorded, not just by Joseph Smith, but by people like Mosiah Hancock, John Taylor, etc. It does make one wonder why this is not happening today…or, if it is….why it is not being recorded/known that we all might benefit.
I suppose that is the question of the ages for believers….Why does God choose to seemingly throw us into a world of secular reasoning versus faith? …and why aren’t heavenly manifestations occuring right now? It is certainly easier to just go with the secular reasoning but…when I have taken that path in my life, there is always something “missing”…..I don’t think that it’s just the way I was raised or wishful thinking either because I’ve known many others who weren’t raised with any religion at all that have the same feelings.
IMHO, we’ll probably all laugh at these speculations on the other side.
I hope so.
One of my favorite quotes……… .”…the Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”
My apologies for your perception. I guess…. I kinda figured that “my perspective only” would be understood by all that there is no agenda to “push”.
That means that it’s….well….my perspective only.
With respect, if I had an agenda to push, I’d start my own fundamentalist blog.
I’m not interested in proselyting.
We see ourselves and the Church moving in the same direction…with things eventually to be set back in order but…once again…that is my perspective and I’m not trying to “push it” on anyone. Believe it or not, there are many that are curious and like to find that out.
I’m probably more interested in folks staying in the Church than a lot of Church members.
May I ask where you get the idea that I’m pushing an agenda? I thought I was being more than clear that I’m not.
If I can’t comment here, let me know.
edit:
In fact, the whole spirit of your post seems to be anti-fundamentalist and although I don’t want to cause ill feelings with anyone, I don’t want to take any “shots” either. It’s probably best that I just refrain from posting. My apologies jeriboy if I came across as anti-LDS….nothing could be further from the truth. All the best to you and yours.
Poppyseed, Sorry to hear about your health problem. I feel and believe (and have witnessed) that there very much is healing power in the priesthood but that God has the final say. He knows what is best for us better than we know ourselves. That is the REAL test of faint IMHO. At least it is for me.
Certainly the Church stumbles.
There is a pattern is every dispensation and, on a smaller scale, throughout history.
-Higher laws/great blessing potential is given to a people
-They can’t/won’t live up to them
-They are taken away
Whether it’s worshipping a golden calf, trading celestial plural marriage for statehood, or any of the multitude of BoM histories of people letting pride step in after a few years and ruin their spiritual lives….it seems to be pretty much the same. (the plural marriage remark is from my perspective only but you get my drift)
The huge difference is, IMHO, that this is the LAST dispensation. There won’t be any do-overs. Things WILL be put in order.
I agree that those who have not questioned bravely can be annoying at times…I’m referring to your RS friends telling healing stories. But I just try to put that in perspective and realize that that is where they are right now. I’ve been there myself and I’m sure you have also.
It certainly can be a lonely feeling when we first come out of, what I call, the Gospel Essentials Fog. There’s not a heck of a lot of folks that share the same feelings and the main body of church goers don’t seem to want to discuss it. I think that’s pretty normal. Thank goodness for places like this where these thoughts and realizations can be bounced off others.
Poppyseed, I heard a great analogy comparing our journey with the rungs on a ladder. Sometimes we run out of rungs and have to go back to the beginning and get more for the ladder to get us any higher.
Best of luck to you.
Good points Tom…I’ll try…let’s see: Is atonement an accomplished fact?
IMHO the atonement was accomplished from Gethsemane to Calvary. No further atonement is necessary. “It is finished”.
Is restoration an accomplished fact?
If we’re talking apples and apples here and identifying the restoration as restoring the priesthood (the authority to act in God’s name) to the Earth after the great apostacy, then yes. Now I realize that the current mindset of most Church members is that the Church being restored is what is important and the priesthood restoration is some sort of appendage of that or that the priesthood can’t exist without the Church. Fundamentalists would argue and offer as proof the priesthood being restored to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey when no church existed. If the Church hadn’t been organized, the priesthood would still be alive and well IMHO.
What about revelation?
That’s always the fundamentalist question. We haven’t seen any “thus saith the Lord” revelations in a long while. What happened. Charles Penrose admitted to writing OD #1 and the leadership said that they got together and prayed about OD#2 and “felt the spirit”.
What about scripture?
Excellent point. The sealed portion of the BoM comes to mind. I’m afraid though that when the people can’t/won’t live up to the scripture they have been given, the Lord is not going to get in a hurry to reveal more.
What about prophecy and seership?
Exactly. What happened to current prophecy? Where are the angelic visitations and visions? What happened that seership would be reduced to “feeling the spirit”? It sounds suspiciously like the heavens are shut for some reason….maybe it’s just me.
All good points and great food for thought.
And Tom….I’m the “odd duck” here in this pond. If anyone needs to duck stones, it’s probably me.
😆 If we are to believe Joseph Smith when he tells us, “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God….”, then if we dispute what he taught regarding the character of God…..I submit, with respect to Poppyseed, that the core is indeed changed. The character of God, as brought forth to us by Joseph Smith is absolutely a Gospel Essential. Allow me to use an exageration to make a point…
Where does this stop? Should we just chunk the BoM, the Bible, the PoGP, the Journal of Discourses, etc. because we don’t want to be guilty of carrying on any false traditions? If we believe that “a live prophet trumps a dead prophet”, should we just toss all former teachings out and have Thomas Monson write the gospel? Could he write us something that would “fit in” with secular reasoning and that we wouldn’t feel like we were a peculiar people for believing?
And what happens when he passes away?…Do we toss the Book of Thomas Monson and have the new church-appointed president write another?
I know I’m being crude, and that’s not my intent, but I’m just trying to make a point and understand where this is supposed to end….or does it? ….Does the gospel just need to change everytime secular reasoning comes in dispute with it?
My unsolicited opinion only…
Disregard at will…..
I hesitate to comment since I have not seen the manual. I would respectfully submit, however, that if we start downplaying or ignoring clear teachings like the following:, I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know…that he was once a man like us…. (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol. 6, 305-307)
…that we are chopping at the root of the restoration. Throwing the essence of the King Follett Discourse out the window in the name of progress may be going a bit far IMHO.
Things may progress…sure….but progressing does not mean disputing. In fact, Joseph Smith was IMHO clear about things in the future disputing his teachings:
“If any man preach any other gospel than that which I have preached, he shall be cursed;”
“How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? by his contradicting a former revelation.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 366 & 214)
I could be mistaken…
My opinion only…
I see your point Tom, and agree in principle. I would respectfully submit, however, that if the best thinking/beliefs of Budhists, Catholics, Muslims, and Jews (and Christians for that matter) are “good enough” that a restoration would not have been necessary. I sincerely hope that we don’t fall into catogorizing everthing that has been brought forth in this last dispensation, that is uncomfortable in secular society, as “false traditions”.
My 1 1/2 cents….
