[Butters]

I think there is a lot to what DA said. It is more about the cultural aspect of what the sin is.

For example, when I spoke with a friend of mine about some of the struggles I was having with my testimony she asked if there was a change of spirit for me when I was reading the things that I was reading that would give me cause to question. I told her there really wasn’t for me because I felt that since I was looking to read articles and such that were from an unbiased source (university studies) I felt it to be OK. She didn’t feel the same way. She felt anything that didn’t support the church was against it and so I must have lost the spirit when I read these things.

Maybe I did, but I didn’t feel very different. Or maybe because of the “stupor of thought” as I read things contrary to my belief for so long was the loss of spirit. I felt it was more of reading something that went against what I was brought up with was causing more of the conflict than losing the spirit.

But when I do “sin” (lose my temper) I find myself agitated until I make it right with that person whom I lost it with.

[Butters]

I requested to be removed from the visiting teaching list and I was instantly being made into a project. Fortunately, one of my friends that I served in YW with a few years back is now in the RS presidency. So I set up a lunch date with her and we had a great time. We did talk about some of my concerns, but nothing that would have caused more concern. I then talked to her about getting rid of some of the things that cause me guilt and this was one of them. It was a really good lunch and she felt better about where I was. I told her that I would like things to remain in confidence but I would appreciate them not making me a project. She called me yesterday and let me know that I was no longer a project and that I was just looking for a little “down” time.

I think that worked out really well for me. Maybe you could do something like that?

[Butters]

Amazing story. Thanks for sharing that.

[Butters]

Cadence wrote:

Maybe it is we that will have to accept the Dalia Lama in the next life. We so often think Of Jesus Christ as a universal figure but in reality the majority of the world still does not adhere to that belief, so who is to say they are not correct. Personally I do not know. That is the struggle I have with the church and Christianity in general. YOu have this belief that you must accept Jesus Christ in this life or suffer the consequenses. Yet you are not given any real tangible evidence that that is the correct thing to do. All you got is some old scripture and a bunch of people sometimes crazy peaple telling you that is what you have to do. If belief was so criticaI think it would be more obvious, unless God is a trickster God and he wants to mess me up.

Again th is goes back to the original question. Mormonism seems to teach ultimately that God only helps or saves the righteous who adhere to some kind of moral standard predefined by them, such as belief in Jesus Christ.

I struggle with this as well. I just don’t understand why we are supposed to base everything on feelings that we have when those feelings have gotten me in trouble in the past. Honestly, emotions are not the best guide and it bothers me that they are what is necessary for salvation.

[Butters]

doug wrote:

I am fascinated by the whole LDS/nudist concept. I’d love the chance to understand more of the issues involved. I’m betting there’s a website.

Oh man, there is! I searched for something quite different at one point and came across this website:

http://www.ldssdc.info/

I was SO shocked that I HAD to read some of the forum. 😯 WOW

[Butters]

There is nothing I can say that will make you feel better. But please know that I genuinely feel for you.

Take a break for a while. I understand how family oriented things are and appear when you don’t have kids of your own. People are so insensitive to those that are not the same as they are.

I hate Mothers Day because I know the pain it has caused those in my life that are not mothers. I cringe at some of the lessons that are taught.

I have a very dear friend that has gone through so much trying to have her own children. Through adoptions that didn’t work she lost 4 children that were “supposed” to be hers. Through her I know that nothing will take away your pain and nothing said will ease your hurt. Please accept my virtual hugs.

[Butters]

Before you can answer if God only helps the righteous you have to define what is righteous. And that, my friends, is what causes war so good luck.

Seriously though, I don’t think that anyone has a perfect handle on what is righteous. I think that if we are honestly trying to do good and helping those around us that need it then you are going to have help from God.

Here is a thought…if Satan is who gives us guilt for not being “righteous enough” then can we really actually hear Gods whisperings to us if we are always feeling guilty about the things that we are not doing? Perhaps, letting go of the guilt of not doing everything perfect will allow us to be more open to the promptings that He would want to give us.

[Butters]

cwald wrote:

Yes, all to often, I’m afraid. From the wisdom of Old-Timer, often we are definitely more intolerant, judgmental, and harder on our own, than our non-member neighbors. This is an issue that I wish the GAs would focus on SPECIFICALLY from the podium at GC. Specifically – and leave all the other mormon doctrine and lingo out of the talk like obedience, temples, missionary work, reactivation and repentance. Just focus on the issue of “blatant disrespect, intolerance and rejection” of fellow members who no longer believe and/or no longer follow all the cultural commandments.

It is because of the “you KNEW and yet you rejected it” mind set. In fact, I have been hit recently with this of late from family members. Because I have “KNOWN” the truth and been through the temple and yet I am simply disregarding it and choosing different (read sinful). That is why they are harder on our own is because they feel like we have rejected what has and is being taught for the more simple and easier thing to do.

But honestly, I don’t know how they will or would see it differently until they have experienced their own faith crisis so they knew that it wasn’t and isn’t easier.

[Butters]

This is a great idea! When I was starting to struggle with things I actually decided to read the NT so that I could gain and retain a testimony of Christ.

A refresher will be great.

[Butters]

Cute little dialog, but actually pretty accurate!

[Butters]

It isn’t something that they will apologize for and I do think that many of the GA’s still think that way. It is like my husband’s grandmother, she comes from a different time when that worked for them. Of course what worked for you is going to seem like the best idea. Since these men come from the same time as the grandmother, I am sure that they do still feel that way. But (thankfully) times have changed and it isn’t always going to work the same.

I do recall (but couldn’t tell you the names right now) that there have been talks that have been given that it is OK for the women to work outside the home if it is necessary. Now a days, it is necessary. I am grateful that the speakers have changed the story (even if they don’t agree 100%).

I am glad that I had my learning experience. I am very glad that I can say “it worked for them, but for me it is going to have to be a little different”. I just really feel for those that can’t do that for themselves. When YW would come to me for advice I have said many times “You need to do what works best for you.” And I fully believe that.

[Butters]

When my husband and I were first married he settled into a job that wasn’t really very good so I was the bread winner. That was fine for a bit and then I got annoyed so I talked to the Bishop and thought maybe he could give him a gentle nudge. 😳

OH MAN, was that a mistake. When he did talk to my husband he basically told him he was a lazy SOB like his boy and that my husband better step it up. It was one of the most horrible experiences of my life. He said a lot of things similar that were in this talk.

The good thing about it is I learned the Bishops are not always inspired and that worked for others wasn’t always going to work for us.

And for another thing. I am a mother of 3 wonderful kids, but I also have learned that I am not one of those uber-nurturing type of woman. I have actually enjoyed working (mostly from home) and my kids ARE good kids even with me working.

[Butters]

I have actually thought some of these same things, but not quite as concisely as you.

In our old YW presidency we had someone that had married a catholic and converted him and they are happily attending church, we had the pregnant before marriage (and no mission) and later sealed and were happily attending church and then we also had the returned missionary, sealed in the temple and now her husband is an atheist.

I think the diversity there was actually REALLY good for those girls to see that just because you “check all the boxes” doesn’t mean that you will live happily ever after.

The leader that has the atheist husband had a very difficult time and almost ended in divorce. She had to do a complete shift in thinking to come to terms that she still loved and cared for this man that no longer had the same ideals that she did. The girls watched some of this happening and knew some of her struggles (since her daughter was in YW so her daughters friends knew what was happening).

SilentStruggle, you are very correct in your line of thinking. We do take it for granted that if we are checking all the boxes that life will be perfect for us. It is that hard dose of reality that makes a lot of us end up here.

[Butters]

Good points. I will give it a try and see what happens.

[Butters]

I echo what has been said. I live in a ward that is truly unbelievable when it comes to serving others. But I also feel strongly about what f4h1 said:

Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:

Cadence, this too is so very important for me. In fact, living outside of Utah, I have met people that are so kind and loving outside of the LDS church that I have felt humbled by the way they live with so much love, acceptance and kindness for others. This is why I stay, and why I reject the concept that non-mormons have no future in God’s kingdom, I see and feel God working through them so often.

f4h1

Good people are every where. And I have been so blessed to have been touched by so many of them.

[Author]

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