[Cadence]

Old-Timer wrote:

Absolutely and universally? Of course not. Individually and uniquely? Sure.

Honest question for you Cadence:

Quote:

What is the point of your last question?

Is it to gain the perspectives of the people here – or to argue a point – or to downplay someone else’s comment – or something else?

Quote:

So what?

Why is it important for us as individuals to avoid believing something just because it might not be absolute, universal Truth?

I ask “does believing something make it true” because this question fascinates me. I so often hear individuals say “They know Joseph Smith was a Prophet” or ” I know the church is true”, because they believe it it is true. But how do they really know? Other than a few individuals in history who may have the privilege of seeing God belief is generally obtained through an emotional or what we call a spiritual experience. So how does that qualify as a determiner of truth? I have had spiritual experiences that revealed things to me that ended up being wrong and even detrimental to my well being. Hence a conflict developed in my mind between my spiritual witness and reality. They were not compatible. So I have become skeptical that a spiritual witness or belief in something in relation to God is always accurate or truthful.

I am like many who want to believe in Christ and God but because of my logical nature I struggle for something that is tangible to me. What that is I am not sure. When I pray I ask God one question. Are you there? I do not even know how he would answer me to the degree that I would not doubt, but I believe he can if he chooses to. I want to know God not just believe in God as I do now. Hence I want to know the truth of God.

[Cadence]

Tom Haws wrote:

Cadence wrote:

Cadence wrote:

Not so sure good policy or preparedness constitutes revelation from on high or at least something as definitive as “thus sayeth the Lord”. It wold be much like saying it may be extra cold this winter, it would be best if I prepared by buying a warmer coat.

The other way to look at it is the way you did in the quote above–that it is revelation. The way I talk to myself about it is this: “Why be a debunker? It’s so much more peaceful to be a believer.”

I am a believer. I just don’t believe God hates his children.

Does believing something make it true?

[Cadence]

Just for grins I picked up a copy of The New International Version of the Bible. I must say although it reads on maybe a 6th grade level it is very enjoyable to read. So many of the disjointed sentences are eliminated and the words flow so much better.

[Cadence]

just me wrote:

Cadence wrote:

All I can say is if many had their way they would line up to live The Law of Moses. We have gone so over board with rules that the average member can no longer live up to everything. White shirt are a good example. Just an idea that got elevated to doctrine in many members eyes.

Have you read the whole LoM lately? Oh my word it is…well, not suited to our current cultural norms and values. I think there are surely some who would, but not many. Eiyiyi!

I

I was being facetious. But I am sure you knew that. My point really is not that individuals want to abstain from pork and stone adulterers, sell maybe the second one but that they really want to impose a set of rules on themselves and others to make them feel like they are actually doing things pleasing to God, thus earning a reward

[Cadence]

MWallace57 wrote:

I think that the Missionary program and language training missions are one example of continuing revelation. I remember Spencer W. Kimball admonishing us to learn Mandarin Chinese way back when China was a Communist country, the cold war was on and no missionaries where allowed in mainland China. Same thing with Russia.

If you are going to count that as revelation that is fine but then you need to accept that many churches are receiving revelation. Many evangelical people I know are trying everything they can to get into countries currently off limits to them. This may include learning the language. Not so sure good policy or preparedness constitutes revelation from on high or at least something as definitive as “thus sayeth the Lord”. It wold be much like saying it may be extra cold this winter, it would be best if I prepared by buying a warmer coat.

[Cadence]

All I can say is if many had their way they would line up to live The Law of Moses. We have gone so over board with rules that the average member can no longer live up to everything. White shirt are a good example. Just an idea that got elevated to doctrine in many members eyes.

[Cadence]

Bruce in Montana wrote:

And then there is the idea that the fossil record, which amounts to about 2 pieces in a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle, is simply the remnants of a former creation. Good luck trying to find a “scientist” that will agree with that…I don’t blame them actually, the fossil record is all they have so they have to try (rather successfully if you go in any college classroom) to make it worth much more than it actually is.

Yes…you can talk to “these people”.

I am one…..talk away.

I will give this a shot. It is not a matter of science or any particular belief system. It is a matter of empirical evidence. If I observe something, that should be just as tangible and valid as a emotional experience telling me of truth. Using the fossil analogy you can claim that it is some minor pieces that have no importance but the empirical evidence does not support this conclusion. It is a matter of how the fossils are laid down and how they are grouped. And yes many animals have been entirely reconstructed from the fossil remains. Granted a very small portion of the animals that lived are recorded in fossil but those that are give a very detailed picture. It simply is not logical to say that this record is not valid. You can apply this same logical reasoning to many areas such as the flood, the age of the earth, and others. The empirical evidence all points to the reality that scripture in these areas is either incorrect or as I choose allegorical, but certainly not literal. Of course you can always take the position that God made the world with fossils intact, which many do, but I choose not to trust a God who would be so deceptive.

[Cadence]

Brian Johnston wrote:

Let me challenge you though. If he’s a decent guy, would it really be the end of the world if he came by now and then to hang for a few minutes and you get to know each other? It really isn’t so bad expanding our social networks. It can be very positive. You don’t have to have a formal and stuffy HT relationship.

I agree. Just set the terms of the visit such as no lessons. Remember this guy is just trying to do what he thinks is right, but whatever you do do not dodge his requests. If you really do not want visits then just be honest and say so.

[Cadence]

allquieton wrote:

That said, I don’t believe revelation has ended. I just think our church leaders may not be true prophets. Which doesn’t mean they are in any way unfit, or weren’t called, to lead the church. There may not be any prophets around right now. Or they may be somewhere where we aren’t hearing them. Hard to say. I’m still trying to get to the bottom of it.

This made me think maybe the issue is not so much that there is not revelation but who gets it. Perhaps being a prophet is strictly a calling from God yet we have made it more an assignment. God calls who he will not who we say he should.

[Cadence]

The challenge many believers have is that they are perfectly willing to replace empirical evidence with an emotional state. Such as I have seen dinosaur fossils but that does not jive with my emotional state of belief so therefore they did not exist or at minimum I am not suppose to understand their relevance at this point. When individuals take this approach there really is no argument you can make to make them see reality. The emotional state will always and easily replace the evidence and reality.

[Cadence]

There has to be order and structure for any organization to function. Everyone running around saying they had a vision of how we are to proceed would be chaos.

What is revelation is the real question to me. I have ideas that I think would make the church a much better organization, but just becasue I am very convinced I am corrrect does not make them revelation. Likewise a warm or fuzzy feeling is in no way revelation in my mind. Especially when you get to something as grand as the church. If someone other than the prophet claims to have revelation for the whole church they better be telling me a story of how they sat down with Christ and received direct instruction. Of course then I would just think they were a nut case so in reality we are stuck with only the prophet getting revelation after all.

[Cadence]

Magic, mysticism, double and hidden meanings, why do we always try to attribute these things to the scriptures. Why do we try and make more out of a simple passage than is actually there. Could it be that we so want scripture to explain everything and conform to our own bias that we find the meaning we want. I very much struggle with a God who would would place stringent requirements on us to obtain eternal life yet give us an instruction manual that was so open to different interpretation that it would be hopeless for the masses to understand the directions. IMO the Scriptures are allegory and myth wrapped together. They may be and are very likely inspired writings but we ultimately have to use the intelligence God gave us to chart our own path and not rely solely on the the cryptic passages in scripture to determine or journey.

[Cadence]

Some of the church theology is determined by specific passages or wording in the KJV. Not using it would dilute or eliminate certain passages that we use as reference for specific doctrines.

[Cadence]

I tend to support individuals in leadership positions because they are just that leaders. Not to do so is disrespectful of those individuals who in many cases are just trying to do their best to fulfill their responsibility. But are they receiving revelation? I highly doubt it. We throw revelation around in the church like everyone has a direct line to heaven. If that were the case everyone would not be getting so many different answers.

[Cadence]

Perhaps God is not pushing buttons and pulling levers to control our destiny as much as we want to believe. Maybe he just got the ball rolling and is sitting back and watching to see how we sort it out.

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